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Paths of Civilization

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ETA50M said:
That still doesn't mean we can't raise up our martial to a nice respectable level and increase our naval as time goes on. I'm not advocating for a rush of turns where we do nothing but raise our naval as if we are on a timer but setting a goal and working towards it. I been arguing for this strategy for God knows how long now and our roads are still terrible and our defences haven't gotten to the level they need to combat the nomad horde that will hit us in the future.
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Well, it's a really bad time for it at this exact moment. And sorry, yeah, I assumed you wanted Naval 5 in like 3 turns.
At least we're currently working towards spiritbonded and the 'free' equestrian tech; thise are important against nomads.

@ me at the next mid turn and/or the main turn after that for support on martial/warships
 
BungieONI said:
Patricians want pony, and even if we support them now, they will want more pony after, as in "Curious Developments" it says to expect repeat performances.
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Yeah, but next turn we might have the wealth to let them burn down their strength to complete a quest who's effects we're actually happy enough to have happen.

I'd kinda prefer that to having to suppress them, honestly.
 
Redium said:
What happens when they decide to build Block Housing?
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They literally can't. The only cities that are able to import food in sufficient quantities to support blockhousing are Redshore and Blackmouth, thanks to their positions on the sea.

Furthermore, if we assume that the Dam and Canal unlock blockhousing in Valleyhome, Lower Valleyhome, Valleyguard and SacredForest, then our passive infrastructure policies can create blockhousing in those cities regardless of whether they are Free Cities or not. It then becomes a choice of paying 3 econ per city, or 2 econ per city and getting one culture and ai-passive policy.
 
George said:
It's not regardless, though, because there's a small chance we won't be able to do it the next turn for whatever reason. If it weren't so outlandish a reward, I'd certainly agree.
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Theres no chance we won't be able to do it. Policies prioritize quests and our passive infrastructure can finish the remaining Ironworks before the deadline.
Kiba said:
What is your suggestion for guild action? Plant crops? More Porcelain? Not sure if I want to upset Mountain Horse.
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-Build Docks, it costs 1 Wealth but immediately overflows Diplo into Wealth
-Expand Snails, costs 3 Econ, generates 3 Wealth, reducing the risk of order of operations(well if we had any idea how THAT works) triggering on the spiritbonded. Risk of starvation

Not Porcelain or Glass since those eat Forests we need for the Ironworks. Not Cotton, Poppy Wine or Hemp since we need the econ expansions for priest quest and avoid spawning MORE cities.
We can switch two of our Mercenaries to Core. Three would trigger overmartial after Spiritbonded, but switching two mercenaries means the passive wealth income becomes +5, giving us a bigger range to work in.

Eyeballing then next turn would be:{S} Support Faction - Patricians: Culture -4
{S} New Settlement - Internal Reorg: Econ -1, EE +3, Delayed income Econ +1, Mysticism +1
{S} Found Free City - Valleyguard(not Blackmouth because we do want to have a city we can put Block Housing in that's not Freed for management purposes): Econ -2, EE -2
{S} More Spiritbonded: Econ -2, Mysticism -2, Wealth -5, Martial +2, Culture +1, Cavalry +1
{G} Gold Mine: Econ -4, EE -1, Tech -3
{G} Build Docks: Econ -2, Wealth -1, Diplo +3
{F} Switch Red Banner to Core Upkeep
{F} Switch Blood Rain Banner to Core Upkeep

Net effect(applying current leading policies and consolidating automatic costs and income):
Diplomacy 18 +3(passive) +3(action)
Economy 12 +7(passive)-2(overcent) -11(action)
EE 4 +5(passive) +3+7(action) -3(action)
Martial 2 +20(mercs) +1(passive) +2(action)
Light Cavalry 1 +1(action)
Naval 0 +1(passive)
Wealth 7 +5(passive)-2(overcent) -6(action)
Culture 24 +5(passive) -4(action) +1(action)
Mysticism 24 +5(passive) -2(action)
Tech 18 +7(passive) -3(action)

Okay, this combination has no stat hitting zero. Martial does not explode. We do half the Spiritblooded NOW, so we don't have to juggle a 10 Wealth cost next turn, because god knows we'd find some way to make that cramped. 2x 5 Wealth costs are painful. 1x 10 Wealth cost is crippling.
@Academia Nut
Does the Overcentralized costs come out of passive income first or does it hit the reserve pool along with the actions(i.e. do we need to worry about order of passive income?)
PrimalShadow said:
You are just forcing policies + redshore to take it.
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Yes. Duh. That is what policies are FOR.
 
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PrimalShadow said:
Your point was that it delays the Guild Quest by a turn. I'm addressing that point by saying no, it will finish up this turn regardless.

Your response?
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I was assuming we had 3 Infrastructure policies running. If we have 5, then yes, Redshore can make it happen one turn early. So they can do the Market quest without our intervention at all, which is also cool.

Either way we don't really have the Econ in tank for the Ironworks to be done manually without some risks.
 
When you think about it, selecting a City with Block Housing to become a Free City is an excellent way to slow down City formation.
 
veekie said:
-Build Docks, it costs 1 Wealth but immediately overflows Diplo into Wealth
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It does not. We are going to spend enough stats that we shouldn't overflow to Wealth until end-of-turn at the earliest. Feel free to do the math.

veekie said:
We can switch two of our Mercenaries to Core. Three would trigger overmartial after Spiritbonded, but switching two mercenaries means the passive wealth income becomes +5, giving us a bigger range to work in.
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I'm pretty sure we can't do that with more can't do that with Mercenaries that are being rented out, so we can at most do this with one MC.

Furthermore, it wouldn't bring us to [+5] income. Our current income once mercenaries are switched back to being paid by our own funds is [-1], and switching even two companies to passive income gets us to [+1] at best.

veekie said:
Eyeballing then next turn would be:{S} Support Faction - Patricians: Culture -4
{S} New Settlement - Internal Reorg: Econ -1, EE +3, Delayed income Econ +1, Mysticism +1
{S} Found Free City - Valleyguard(not Blackmouth because we do want to have a city we can put Block Housing in that's not Freed for management purposes): Econ -2, EE -2
{S} More Spiritbonded: Econ -2, Mysticism -2, Wealth -5, Martial +2, Culture +1, Cavalry +1
{G} Gold Mine: Econ -4, EE -1, Tech -3
{G} Build Docks: Econ -2, Wealth -1, Diplo +3
{F} Switch Red Banner to Core Upkeep
{F} Switch Blood Rain Banner to Core Upkeep
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Fantastic - between the -1 Wealth from docks and the -1 Wealth from Spiritbound, you are taking -6 to Wealth; combined with our Overcentralization, that puts us at -1 Wealth. Guild Panic, anyone?

veekie said:
I was assuming we had 3 Infrastructure policies running. If we have 5, then yes, Redshore can make it happen one turn early.
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Why are you assuming we would be gaining 3 infrastructure progress per turn? We currently gain 5 per turn; and I don't think there are any plans to switch any of those off.
 
veekie said:
Theres no chance we won't be able to do it. Policies prioritize quests and our passive infrastructure can finish the remaining Ironworks before the deadline.

-Build Docks, it costs 1 Wealth but immediately overflows Diplo into Wealth
-Expand Snails, costs 3 Econ, generates 3 Wealth, reducing the risk of order of operations(well if we had any idea how THAT works) triggering on the spiritbonded. Risk of starvation

Not Porcelain or Glass since those eat Forests we need for the Ironworks. Not Cotton, Poppy Wine or Hemp since we need the econ expansions for priest quest and avoid spawning MORE cities.
We can switch two of our Mercenaries to Core. Three would trigger overmartial after Spiritbonded, but switching two mercenaries means the passive wealth income becomes +5, giving us a bigger range to work in.

Eyeballing then next turn would be:{S} Support Faction - Patricians: Culture -4
{S} New Settlement - Internal Reorg: Econ -1, EE +3, Delayed income Econ +1, Mysticism +1
{S} Found Free City - Valleyguard(not Blackmouth because we do want to have a city we can put Block Housing in that's not Freed for management purposes): Econ -2, EE -2
{S} More Spiritbonded: Econ -2, Mysticism -2, Wealth -5, Martial +2, Culture +1, Cavalry +1
{G} Gold Mine: Econ -4, EE -1, Tech -3
{G} Build Docks: Econ -2, Wealth -1, Diplo +3
{F} Switch Red Banner to Core Upkeep
{F} Switch Blood Rain Banner to Core Upkeep

Net effect(applying current leading policies and consolidating automatic costs and income):
Diplomacy 18 +3(passive) +3(action)
Economy 12 +7(passive)-2(overcent) -11(action)
EE 4 +5(passive) +3+7(action) -3(action)
Martial 2 +20(mercs) +1(passive) +2(action)
Light Cavalry 1 +1(action)
Naval 0 +1(passive)
Wealth 7 +5(passive)-2(overcent) -6(action)
Culture 24 +5(passive) -4(action) +1(action)
Mysticism 24 +5(passive) -2(action)
Tech 18 +7(passive) -3(action)

Okay, this combination has no stat hitting zero. Martial does not explode. We do half the Spiritblooded NOW, so we don't have to juggle a 10 Wealth cost next turn, because god knows we'd find some way to make that cramped. 2x 5 Wealth costs are painful. 1x 10 Wealth cost is crippling.
@Academia Nut
Does the Overcentralized costs come out of passive income first or does it hit the reserve pool along with the actions(i.e. do we need to worry about order of passive income?)

Yes. Duh. That is what policies are FOR.
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I'm pretty sure that the patricians would hijack a secondary of some kind to make us do two at once.

Based on this AN info:
Academia Nut said:
Patrician Quest will fail if 2 More Spiritbonded actions are not taken at the main turn next turn. The Patricians will hijack two secondaries if they are not either strongly suppressed or mollified with a Support Faction action.
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veekie said:
Either way we don't really have the Econ in tank for the Ironworks to be done manually without some risks.
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Risks like... what? We are going to be at 24 Econ start of turn. Our income is -5 from unfed cities (it is -7 now, but remember we are getting city support) and -2 from Overcentralization, which leaves us with 17 Econ to spend. I don't see any plans spending that much, even with Ironworks.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Risks like... what? We are going to be at 24 Econ start of turn. Our income is -5 from unfed cities (it is -7 now, but remember we are getting city support) and -2 from Overcentralization, which leaves us with 17 Econ to spend. I don't see any plans spending that much, even with Ironworks.
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Hey Primal? What was your plan again?
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Oct 20, 2017 at 12:46 PM, finished with 118744 posts and 66 votes.
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[X][Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)

[X][Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X][Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X][Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[X][Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)

[X][HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X][HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
 
BungieONI said:
Hey Primal? What was your plan again?
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Here it is, with the Econ costs.
{G} Ironworks (-6E)
{G} Mine (-4E)
{S} Free City (-2E)
{S} Proclaim Glory (-1E)
{S} Integrate Subordinate
{S} Support Faction - Particians

For a total cost of 13, safely below our limit of 17. In fact, it leaves us with 3 spare Econ for our Balanced Policy to use, which I will be suspect will be spent on Planting Poppies for the Wealth or on a Sec Raise Army to get our Martial out of the dumps.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Here it is, with the Econ costs.
{G} Ironworks (-6E)
{G} Mine (-4E)
{S} Free City (-2E)
{S} Proclaim Glory (-1E)
{S} Integrate Subordinate
{S} Support Faction - Particians

For a total cost of 13, safely below our limit of 17. In fact, it leaves us with 3 spare Econ for our Balanced Policy to use, which I will be suspect will be spent on Planting Poppies for the Wealth or on a Sec Raise Army to get our Martial out of the dumps.
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Okay.

Hmmm. You don't directly spend any Wealth though you also have no overflow into it but *shrug* not a problem.

My concerns are that you have the Gold Mine in a guild action and I don't remember confirmation from AN that it was. I may be forgetting that though. AND in the case it isn't I think replacing the PG with it doesn't cause too many issues.

Only other issue is we don't know how Cent Cap loss from too many provinces rounds so doing both a Free City and integrate subordinate may simply move our range but leave us still in red. Not sure though.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Armament policy has crap mechanical effects, like the other "basic" policies. If you want to take them, don't take them for the negligible martial they provide; take them for the narrative effects they provide.


Okay then; propose a specific change we should make for this.

I know you like Armament Policy, but that is almost certainly not going to happen. Other than that, what specific actions do you want us to take to raise our army and navy to respectable levels? What do you want us to give up for that? Make sure that your answer doesn't put us over our wealth limit (which is 4 for next turn).


It is easy to criticize. Why don't you propose a solution?
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The narrative effects is the main reason I want from armament policy and the more we use actions the stronger they become over time. The specific change I'm telling the thread to make is to set a goal and work towards it slowly over time and that not everything must be on a timer or crisis for us to solve it. What's so hard about making sure a secondary is preserved for roads/watchtowers, I know you thought the thread can save a secondary for forest but so far we have shown a distinct lack of consistent discipline.

Also I never plan out entire turns because its useless to do so, but aiming to spare a secondary whenever we can for long term issues that our provinces and vassals can't take for us shouldn't be hard.

I want us to raise our martial so passing the Patrician quest will help us do so and then (M) raising army once that gold mine is built so we have a reserve of martial to drain for warships plus a quick way of gaining stats by using the retraining option. I define respectable martial to be around at least 15-17, which is about half our cap which keeps us safe from overflow and is high enough to deter our enemies and use for warships/retraining.


Long term wise
Roads/Watchtowers are what I want us to focus on and alternating between them whenever we can since they are the two actions only we can do and probably has lots of narrative effects locked behind them. Our defence passive is talking care of our walls, slowly but surely.
George said:
Well, it's a really bad time for it at this exact moment. And sorry, yeah, I assumed you wanted Naval 5 in like 3 turns.
At least we're currently working towards spiritbonded and the 'free' equestrian tech; thise are important against nomads.

@ me at the next mid turn and/or the main turn after that for support on martial/warships
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Yeah for sure doing a raise army once we build that goldmine will keep me satisfied. It would also be good practise for us to get used to that way of playing so we can alternating a dedicated secondary to roads/watchtowers.

EDIT: I did not see your plan had support faction on it:p nevermind the long rant except the part about alternating watchtowers and roads on a dedicated secondary.
 
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[X] [Art] The entire half-exile practice should be reviewed (-1 Stability, ???)
Already talked about this. It's a huge opportunity for more justice and the freeing up of Black Soil production from the grips of slavery panic.
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x2
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x3
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x4
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x5
I want one more forestry, and I don't care about the others, so MAXIMUM TREES FOREVER it is.
[X] [HK] Offer to send military aid
-[X] [HK] Offensive Policy
Not sure what I want here. It all smells fishy.
 
Glassware said:
Yes, but founding a Free City should hopefully make us yellow again.
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Which would not be enough if we immediately went over the province limit. Playing Cent games at yellow can work. Not so much at Red
PrimalShadow said:
Fantastic - between the -1 Wealth from docks and the -1 Wealth from Spiritbound, you are taking -6 to Wealth; combined with our Overcentralization, that puts us at -1 Wealth. Guild Panic, anyone?
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Transitioning Banners to Core support and thus not costing Wealth. It leaves us at Wealth 1, triggering Guild Panic, which the Gold Mine ends before it costs Stability.
PrimalShadow said:
I'm pretty sure we can't do that with more can't do that with Mercenaries that are being rented out, so we can at most do this with one MC.

Furthermore, it wouldn't bring us to [+5] income. Our current income once mercenaries are switched back to being paid by our own funds is [-1], and switching even two companies to passive income gets us to [+1] at best.
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You can check with @Academia Nut, but we could do this event with our core army. If we had a core army. Switching them to Core mode would not affect deployment...well at least deployment into the HK.
 
veekie said:
Which would not be enough if we immediately went over the province limit. Playing Cent games at yellow can work. Not so much at Red
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And then we get a PSN trigger and drop back to safe levels.

veekie said:
Transitioning Banners to Core support and thus not costing Wealth. It leaves us at Wealth 1, triggering Guild Panic, which the Gold Mine ends before it costs Stability.
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You sure we would get that wealth by the midturn?
 
Candesce said:
We're not actually guaranteed a PSN activation, so it'll depend on what gambles we'd have to make somewhere else. Or on how the bandwagon goes.
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The only ways we have to reduce our Centralization score is to use PSN. Integrating provinces does as well, but it tends to lower our cap by the same amount. {S} Build Roads does the opposite and raises our Centralization while also raising the cap just as much.

We can also increase our Centralization Cap by turning a city into a Free City, but that uses up subordinate slots. We have a lot of those right now, but they're ultimately limited. 1 Free City is a good idea to see if we can manage to secure a legacy, but for every city more than that it pays fewer and fewer returns.

Unless we go all-in on Free Cities (i.e. turn Valleyguard, Lower Valleyhome, and Blackmouth into Free Cities), we're going to have to hope PSN give us the chance to drop Centralization. The issue with that, though, is creating too many Free Cities will likely have negative consequences for our government type. It might eventually force us to switch over to City-State League which is very undesirable.

veekie said:
Transitioning Banners to Core support and thus not costing Wealth. It leaves us at Wealth 1, triggering Guild Panic, which the Gold Mine ends before it costs Stability
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How can we do that if we lend the Banners out to suppress monotheists in the Highland Kingdom?
 
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