- Location
- Australia
@Academia Nut, with the increasing amount of quality iron tools to go around with our ironworks, can we expect our Infrastructure passive policy to increase in power?
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Oh right, one more thing: If the HK situation end well we can invite them to the Games too, which would help our everything better.
-Violation of criminal justice system
--Locality: Rural
--Cause:
---Political. Replaces assassinations, banishment and incarceration for political opponents
---Lack of oversight. Low connectivity(aka Roads), low Crown presence(aka Palaces) and low Religious presence(aka Temples) allows this exploit to be used to head off social climbing rivals.
--Effect:
---Half exiles contain victims of political repression and abuse of power.
-Rising unpleasant job demand
--Locality: Urban
--Cause:
---High demand for charcoal, leather and alchemical products requires large number of skilled, unpleasant labor to handle phases of the process.
---Grossly outdated definition of half exile labor(reminder, the last time we revised this definition was set in the Stone Age) allowed Patricians, Yeomen, Guilds and Priests(yes, even them, who do you think need half exiles to handle funerals and alchemy?) to save money.
---High demand for half exiles meant rewarding exploits which generate more half exiles.
--Effect:
---Technological stagnation in half-exile limited skilled industries.
---Systematic abuse of lower classes and refugees to trigger
Look again at the half exile trades:
-Waste disposal - No profit, high unpleasantness, high risk(disease risk is high). We aren't making waste disposal manpower efficient for a long time without either creating slums without waste disposal(thus saving manpower), or driving lower class standards of living down enough that you could pay them a small amount.
-Leather/Fur production - High profit, high unpleasantness, medium risk(tanning fumes are not healthy, but not deadly). As this trade produces it's own profit, the costs should equalize out. But the Guilds and Patricians will get less profit since they used to just take all the profits of the process.
-Charcoal/Asheries(as in burning plants and bones to generate minerals needed for alchemical and steel production processes) production - Medium profit, medium unpleasantness, medium risk. This pays for itself, but again, the Guilds and Patricians lose money in the transition.
-Tailings handling - High profit, medium unpleasantness, high risk. This also pays for itself, the explosive growth of Alchemy had seen to that. This is basically hazard pay.
-Quarantine/disease labor - No profit, high unpleasantness, high risk. Less frequent job, and mostly terrifying. Fortunately the status is elevated with the Carrion Eaters and shamans...but they still need unskilled labor to assist them for this.
-Corpse disposal - No profit, high unpleasantness, medium-high risk. This would be a pretty big deal for urbanization, there's going to be bodies to bury every day, but it won't be cheap anytime soon.
We can cut half exiles out of all the trades which require skilled labor and which generate their own profit, but there's really no way to pay a fair wage to handle trash disposal.
Not when we're still in BC timeline.
To elaborate, the current root problem is multifaceted, so basically anyone claiming to solve the root problem here should be looked at suspiciously:
-Violation of criminal justice system
--Locality: Rural
--Cause:
---Political. Replaces assassinations, banishment and incarceration for political opponents
---Lack of oversight. Low connectivity(aka Roads), low Crown presence(aka Palaces) and low Religious presence(aka Temples) allows this exploit to be used to head off social climbing rivals.
--Effect:
---Half exiles contain victims of political repression and abuse of power.
-Rising unpleasant job demand
--Locality: Urban
--Cause:
---High demand for charcoal, leather and alchemical products requires large number of skilled, unpleasant labor to handle phases of the process.
---Grossly outdated definition of half exile labor(reminder, the last time we revised this definition was set in the Stone Age) allowed Patricians, Yeomen, Guilds and Priests(yes, even them, who do you think need half exiles to handle funerals and alchemy?) to save money.
---High demand for half exiles meant rewarding exploits which generate more half exiles.
--Effect:
---Technological stagnation in half-exile limited skilled industries.
---Systematic abuse of lower classes and refugees to trigger
Because it's not a solvable problem yet.
Look again at the half exile trades:
-Waste disposal - No profit, high unpleasantness, high risk(disease risk is high). We aren't making waste disposal manpower efficient for a long time without either creating slums without waste disposal(thus saving manpower), or driving lower class standards of living down enough that you could pay them a small amount.
-Leather/Fur production - High profit, high unpleasantness, medium risk(tanning fumes are not healthy, but not deadly). As this trade produces it's own profit, the costs should equalize out. But the Guilds and Patricians will get less profit since they used to just take all the profits of the process.
-Charcoal/Asheries(as in burning plants and bones to generate minerals needed for alchemical and steel production processes) production - Medium profit, medium unpleasantness, medium risk. This pays for itself, but again, the Guilds and Patricians lose money in the transition.
-Tailings handling - High profit, medium unpleasantness, high risk. This also pays for itself, the explosive growth of Alchemy had seen to that. This is basically hazard pay.
-Quarantine/disease labor - No profit, high unpleasantness, high risk. Less frequent job, and mostly terrifying. Fortunately the status is elevated with the Carrion Eaters and shamans...but they still need unskilled labor to assist them for this.
-Corpse disposal - No profit, high unpleasantness, medium-high risk. This would be a pretty big deal for urbanization, there's going to be bodies to bury every day, but it won't be cheap anytime soon.
We can cut half exiles out of all the trades which require skilled labor and which generate their own profit, but there's really no way to pay a fair wage to handle trash disposal.
Not when we're still in BC timeline.
The choice is to reduce the abuses...or to institute a cost comparable to the Panem to handle urban waste disposal.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Nitpick incoming
We got Spiritbonded in Gold Egg Cracks, 9 updates ago which given the number of sub turns is less than three times we could have chosen to make them. And at none of those times did we have the wealth to do so.
To sum, we know they are important. But we can't afford them.
@Academia Nut - can you tell us when the Partisan Quest expires? I know when the timer ticks down, but not when the mission gets failed and removed.
Here is our timing right now:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Labour of Fire Vote
Midturn; Partician quest ticks down to "within 1 turns".
Curious Developments Vote <- [We are here]
Main Turn Vote <A>
Midturn; Partician quest ticks down to "within 0 turns".
Midturn Vote <B>
NEXT Main Turn Vote <C>
Midturn; Partician quest ticks down to "within -1 turns". Obviously quest has failed by now.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Which of <A>, <B>, or <C> is the last action we have to finish the quest?
EDIT: Note to self. The forum doesn't like it when I put a "B" in square brackets.
Here is our timing right now:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Labour of Fire Vote
Midturn; Partician quest ticks down to "within 1 turns".
Curious Developments Vote <- [We are here]
Main Turn Vote <A>
Midturn; Partician quest ticks down to "within 0 turns".
Midturn Vote <B>
NEXT Main Turn Vote <C>
Midturn; Partician quest ticks down to "within -1 turns". Obviously quest has failed by now.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Which of <A>, <B>, or <C> is the last action we have to finish the quest?
EDIT: Note to self. The forum doesn't like it when I put a "B" in square brackets.
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VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Could have avoided the mercenary company and naval power loss had we refrained from flip flopping the Second Son decision.
And we will need to deal with following shitty quests around the same level as -1 stability urban poor or civil war trader quest. Must be thrilling.
And we will need to deal with following shitty quests around the same level as -1 stability urban poor or civil war trader quest. Must be thrilling.
- Location
- Austria
We are not going to have spare Secondaries. Like, just no. With lack of war mission we have a Secondary freed up, sure - and we need it to be forestry, for obvious reasons.
edit: or something else.
Yup.
Hm. No, Kilns do not generate Wealth, so we will still be able to take them; same for Forests.
Still, I maintain that Forestry policy per Infra policy is ideal, 2 Forestries per 3 Infras is unfortunate reality but I can live with this.
Although.
[X] [Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x2
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X] [Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
Nope, Forestry per Infra is what I am going for. It is just reasonable.
I mean, almost enough forestry would hopefully force voters into sometimes doing manual Expand Forests, so only 1 has its pros too; but as planning of next turn shows, we aint going to always have actions for Expand Forests.
Yeah, but we've been informed that the Patricians are doing the Spiritbonded whether we like it or not. On a side note, -7? I only count -6: start at 7[-1], -10 from Spiritbonded and -2 from Kilns. Nothing else costs us Wealth unless I missed something.
On a side note we should consider getting our 3rd Free City. That'd give us an extra AI passive action and almost certainly the 3-city legacy. I'd probably swap out the new settlement for that.
Mission fails if we reach the mid-turn without 3 cavalry. Note that they've made the quest easier, as it passes at or above 3 Cavalry now instead of needing greater than 3 like before.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The Kilns take -2, though I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here
Please clarify?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ironworks Level 2 will adjust Expand Econ and the Econ Passive will become +3 Econ, -3 EE, -1 Tech; the City Support will offset 4 Econ cost for -1 Tech.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Definition of corvée. 1 :unpaid labor (as toward constructing roads) due from a feudal vassal to his lord. 2 :labor exacted in lieu of taxes by public authorities especially for highway construction or repair.
The first definition cant come about due to this thread's hate of Feudalism, the second definition we voted against during some tax reforms I do believe?
Supporting the Second Sons was our only saving grace this turn when fighting the pirates. They were the ones that wiped out the pirates' land bases and ports so that the problem went away. Without them, we would've lost all of that Martial and Navy and the pirates would still be around.
1) Will these changes be retroactive if we assign a policy now?
2) Does our tech refund apply?
If both are true then we really want a City Support now.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Oh my Crow. That Econ Passive is equal to our very old Expand Econ Secondaries before Ironblooded, except for the Tech.
Wooooow. Color me impressed.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Patrician Quest will fail if 2 More Spiritbonded actions are not taken at the main turn next turn. The Patricians will hijack two secondaries if they are not either strongly suppressed or mollified with a Support Faction action.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
The Kilns take -2, though I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here
Please clarify?
As in if we are using mass levy policy and trying to increase amount of forest or reduce use.
No, if we didn't follow SS into the raid; then the pirates will be around but they are everyone's problem including Freehill and Trelli. Now we are short a navy and being shake down by Trelli with existing navy.
- Location
- Australia
It wasn't voted against, it was voted in. We have it. It's why we get a free Infrastructure passive.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
[X] [Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x2
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
Changing vote.
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x2
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
Changing vote.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
So what your saying is that its already in use and yet we still need more?
How is what your suggesting going to end up making up for the lose in labor we will need that doesn't simply move the stigma to other people?
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I'd like to swap out a Spiritbonded for Support Faction (Patricians) to avoid negative wealth, likely with some other modifications. It gives us more time, and hopefully we'll be able to take several secondaries over the next turn and midturn. Additionally if we can avoid the stab drop from Guild Panic, we have a chance at grabbing a Golden Age.
So it effectively just gives +2 Econ/action to our Expand Econ policy? So with Lvl2 Ironworks, our Expand Econ is now +7 Econ, -1 Tech?
Wowsers.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Here's what I'm thinking at the moment if we can take Gold Mine as a Guild action.
{M} Raise Army
{S} War Mission - Pirates Not at war anymore!
{S} Hunt Troublemakers
{S} Integrate Colony - Gulvalley
{S} Support Faction - Patricians
{G} Gold Mine
{G} Kilns
{M} Raise Army
{S} Hunt Troublemakers
{S} Integrate Colony - Gulvalley
{S} Support Faction - Patricians
{G} Gold Mine
{G} Kilns
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Corvee labour is why you get double player chosen infrastructure and +1 infrastructure progress at all times.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
@veekie it seems to me that you're doing that thing again, where you take one faulty assumption (That we would need to pay the half-exiles given a [] Reform vote) and basing your whole argument on that. The idea behind the Reform vote is to return the system to its original intentions and reduce abuses, not do away with the system entirely and make half-exile work paid.