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Paths of Civilization

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Kiba said:
So the choice is to make it a skilled labor to gradually reduce the stigma, or to attack the root of problems. Either way, we progresses to getting better treatment for half-exiles.
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I'm not convinced that the other choice will attack the root of the problem. I'm pretty sure that it will end up in declaring the abolition of the half-exile caste, the infuriation of several of our factions, and then they'll rapidly reinstate the heinous practices under a new name.

Removing the stigma is an entirely ancillary benefit. The key is that while while involuntary unskilled labor is more profitable than voluntary labor, local powers will use the tools at their disposal to convert the latter into the former. By converting as many jobs as possible to skilled labor, we reduce the profitability of involuntary labor, and thus reduce the incentive for and likelihood of abuse.
 
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notgreat said:
For right now, as long as we build a Kiln every turn, we're so far ahead of our forestry usage it's kinda ridiculous.

Especially since our Infrastructure policies (a major consumer of forests) are going to be tied up doing 9 progress for the Marketplace quest, which it looks like we're gonna have to supplement with either actions or Free City Infrastructure policies.
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Preaching the choir, here. The idea that our policies weren't going to take the time to build marketplaces was already a ridiculous claim even before the quest.

My vote is locked in the way it is because I said I would, so it'll stay that way.
 
Crisis: Out of Shit. The Ymaryn ran out of shit to make black soil! -1 wealth -1 econ every turn until more shit can be sourced. Black Soil actions cannot be taken. Forest expansion halved.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Hm. Why would the Merc companies pay out an extra time?
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When we had the opportunity to take the mercs back early, we would have gotten paid one last time, so presumably the same thing? Partial turn fees get paid in full?

Gonna have to agree with @veekie here on "even veekie is proposing caution" :p Half exile is a problem we need to fix, but it'll be painful and we're still pretty precarious right now.

[X] [Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)

I've already explained my preferences on policies, but i'll approval vote for double in each, just in case its relevant, i guess? Probably drop those later, but approval voting is just too awesome not to use :p

[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X] [Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X] [Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)

[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn) x2
[X] [Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn) x2
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates) x2
[X] [Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo) x2

Hopefully the banner companies aren't just walking into a trap here, but the other options are all worse :(
[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)

Academia Nut said:
No, but it is currently not widespread enough to be as big a material advantage over soft iron gear as iron gear is over bronze or stone.
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Ahh, fair enough. Basically, our mercs and elites are all (or at least mostly) a step above in equipment, but the bulk of our forces are more or less equal in equipment now?
 
Kiba said:
Crisis: Out of Shit. The Ymaryn ran out of shit to make black soil! -1 wealth -1 econ every turn until more shit can be sourced. Black Soil actions cannot be taken. Forest expansion halved.
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Real talk, you guys have accidentally terraformed part of the lowlands on the Great River from all the black soil that has washed down stream over the millennia.

Abby Normal said:
Ahh, fair enough. Basically, our mercs and elites are all (or at least mostly) a step above in equipment, but the bulk of our forces are more or less equal in equipment now?
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Yes, precisely.
 
[X] [Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)

[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)

[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X] [Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[X] [Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)

DocMatoi said:
Please don't be disingenuous and misrepresent the issue.
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I mean. It's speck you're talking to here.
 
Abby Normal said:
Gonna have to agree with @veekie here on "even veekie is proposing caution" :p Half exile is a problem we need to fix, but it'll be painful and we're still pretty precarious right now.
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We're at Stability 3 and have a gold mine ready to be exploited to fix the Spiritbonded issue. We are in no way in a precarious position. This is the first time in millennia the half exile problem has had a chance to be fixed. We should fix it now not only to fix the issue - something we can do thanks to corvee labour - but also to better fix future social issues.
 
Alright I'm convinced-ish. I'm satisfied with either.
[X] [Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
[X] [Art] The entire half-exile practice should be reviewed (-1 Stability, ???)


[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
Kinda nervous about this, tbh- remember what happened last time we sent our mercs into a religious hotbed?
 
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[X] [Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X][Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates) x1
[X] [Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)

So, besides what already has been pointed out, -1 instability from Half-Exile, likely stability loss from incoming Horse Something tribes, likely stability loss from wealth tanking, likely stability loss from guild panicking, and probably something or the other will predictably be on fire.

Why can't we neatly solve this problem with Sanitation?
 
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TotallyNotEvil said:
So, besides what already has been pointed out, -1 instability from Half-Exile, likely stability loss from incoming Horse Something tribes, likely stability loss from wealth tanking, likely stability loss from guild panicking, and probably something or the other will predictably be on fire.
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Wealth won't tank. We have a literal gold mine that can be tapped with a Secondary to more than cover the Wealth cost. From that, there will be no Stability loss from the guilds panicking. We do not take Stability losses from being attacked by nomads or indeed being attacked by anyone. We are at Stability 3. We will be fine.
 
Andres110 said:
Wealth won't tank. We have a literal gold mine that can be tapped with a Secondary to more than cover the Wealth cost. From that, there will be no Stability loss from the guild panicking. We do not take Stability losses from being attacked by nomads. We are at Stability 3. We will be fine.
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This turn isn't over yet.
Please don't think were safe.
 
notgreat said:
4 stats is ~1 secondary, so it's ~2 secondary actions. An entire [Main] action, up in smoke. I'd definitely call that 'incredibly wasteful'.
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It's not up in smoke, it's buying us 3 turns of the effect of the replacement policy and the difference in effect from there on out. It's a secondary to switch these and we will run into problem sustaining that many Infrastructure policies for 10 turns if we don't have these other policies to work on other issues.

Specifically, going by the two policies tied for 3rd in votes, that'd be 3 Diplomacy and reduced war chance plus increased information about our neighbors, or a bunch of Econ and increased room to maneuver our Econ from City Support, either of which is worth that Main action and is a better effect moving forwards from where we're sitting.

Now, if you want to argue that having that Infrastructure policy is better on a 4-10 turn timeline, then I think that's open to debate.
 
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TotallyNotEvil said:
[X] [Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn) x2
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates) x1
[X] [Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)

So, besides what already has been pointed out, -1 instability from Half-Exile, likely stability loss from incoming Horse Something tribes, likely stability loss from wealth tanking, likely stability loss from guild panicking, and probably something or the other will predictably be on fire.

Why can't we neatly solve this problem with Sanitation?
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Lots of people want to address the half exile problem that has been steadily growing worse throughout the millennia.

Sanitation will neatly solve the kiln problem, but there is no way to neatly solve the fact that we have an unintended caste of undesirables that the Ymaryn offload their (literal) shit work to.

That problem cannot be addressed with sanitation.

[X] [Art] The entire half-exile practice should be reviewed (-1 Stability, ???)
[X][Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[X][Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X][Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X][Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
 
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