Paths of Civilization

PrimalShadow · Oct 12, 2017

notgreat said:
Getting a level 2 Ironworks will (likely) take 3+3+6=12 progress (Ironworks 1, Block Housing, Ironworks 2). This can be relatively easily managed by passive policies. Right now we are generating 5 progress/turn, and have 2 locked in finishing the last Baths for the quest.

We are going up to 7 as soon as our cities come back up.

notgreat said:
Going from 5 to 7 makes it extremely likely that we will get that free megaproject without needing to spend a single stat point.

Practically speaking, I'd really like to do the Ironworks action ourselves next turn. It takes up only one secondary, and it improves all of each of our Econ Expansion actions; I want that ASAP. Especially since we take 4+ Econ Expansion actions a turn, and we need the Ironworks anyway.

VoidZero · Oct 12, 2017

Blue sky prediction, never mind that it's raining cats and dogs in my area.

We will hit -4stability and fracture before we reach next turn.

At -2 stability now and +2 from EJ will not kick-in until next turn
-1 stability from combination of average war roll thus slow progress, general discontent from earlier starvation, and view of helping foreigners before citizens.
-1 stability from West Y defeat by Storm Wolfs.

Oshha · Oct 12, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Can anybody make a clean tally, please? Built-in vote tally gives a somewhat messy output.

Here:

Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 4564 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 114093-114464]
##### NetTally 1.9.7
Task: SR
[X][SR] Food (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Econ/turn each)
No. of Votes: 45
[X][SR] Rotate governors (All periphery states with at least one province cost -1 Diplo/turn each turn, have Min. 2 Loyalty)
No. of Votes: 9

Killer_Whale
Arbit
ETA50M
Ghostdevil
kilopi505
Manget
Mortis
Sivantic
WeaponX1023

[X][SR] Warriors (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Martial/turn each)
No. of Votes: 2

BungieONI
Janadus

[X][SR] Money (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Wealth/turn each)
No. of Votes: 1

sidestory

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Policy
[X][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
No. of Votes: 31
[X][Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
No. of Votes: 12

VoidZero
8bitBob
BungieONI
Carrnage
DkArthas
kilopi505
Marlin
McLuvin
Mortis
notgreat
Spectrum
veekie

[X][Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
No. of Votes: 8

Raichu1972
DkArthas
George
gutza1
Janadus
kalugin
Killer_Whale
Uvigz

[X][Policy] City Support (2 Econ cost for True City support negated)
No. of Votes: 5

sidestory
Ghostdevil
Kiba
Manget
Sivantic

[X][Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x1
No. of Votes: 3

VoidZero
Malevolo
Marlin

[X][Policy] Agriculture (+1 Econ and -1 Econ Expansion/turn)
No. of Votes: 1

Arbit

[X][Policy] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn)
No. of Votes: 1

Mortis

[X][Policy] Special: Vassal Support
No. of Votes: 1

ExNihilo

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: HS
[X][HS] Increase Professionalism (Found Mercenary Company, Reforms advance)
No. of Votes: 36
[X][HS] Increase Iron production further (Redshore Ironworks [-3 Econ, -3 Tech, 2 Sustainable Forest used, Expand Econ additional +1 Econ, -1 EE, -1 Tech] + Sec Survey, Reforms advance)
No. of Votes: 15

Killer_Whale
ExNihilo
gutza1
Kalrotix
keenscythe
kilopi505
Mortis
notgreat
OliWhail
Oshha
Random Member
SeptimusMagisto
sidestory
tryrar
VoidZero

[X][HS] Prototype Weapon Storage (Palace Arsenal + Storehouse Annexes, Reforms advance)
No. of Votes: 10

Killer_Whale
Citino
DakkaMania
DkArthas
ETA50M
Glassware
Marlin
Mortis
veekie
VoidZero

[X][HS] Introduce an elite core (Sec More Spiritbonded + Sec Expand Econ, Reforms advance)
No. of Votes: 6

Killer_Whale
George
gutza1
kilopi505
sidestory
Titus Stargazer

[X][HS] Main Build Gymnasium (Does not advance Reforms, +1 Stability)
No. of Votes: 6

ETA50M
gutza1
keenscythe
kilopi505
Marlin
Sivantic

[X][HS] Center Command on the Cities (Blackmouth becomes a Free City, Reforms advance)
No. of Votes: 1

Glassware

[X][HS] Prototype Deployment Organization (2xSec Blackmouth Colossal Walls, Reforms advance)
No. of Votes: 1

Janadus

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Attack
[X][Attack] Attempt to take the Trelli Strait
No. of Votes: 34
[X][Attack] Hire out mercenary company
No. of Votes: 19

VoidZero
Andres110
BungieONI
ctulhuslp
ExNihilo
hylas240
Janadus
Kiba
kilopi505
Mortis
OliWhail
PrimalShadow
Random Member
SeptimusMagisto
Shard
sidestory
Somebodynobody10
Spectrum
Wiadi

-[x][Attack] Both
No. of Votes: 17

VoidZero
Andres110
BungieONI
ctulhuslp
ExNihilo
hylas240
Janadus
Kiba
Mortis
OliWhail
PrimalShadow
Random Member
SeptimusMagisto
Shard
sidestory
Spectrum
Wiadi

--[X][Attack] To Freehills
No. of Votes: 15

BungieONI
Andres110
ctulhuslp
ExNihilo
hylas240
Janadus
Kiba
kilopi505
Mortis
OliWhail
PrimalShadow
Random Member
Shard
Somebodynobody10
Wiadi

[X][Attack] No one
No. of Votes: 8

VoidZero
BungieONI
ExNihilo
FortTell
Malevolo
Mortis
Random Member
Wiadi

-[x][Attack] Red Banner
No. of Votes: 4

VoidZero
kilopi505
Somebodynobody10
Wiadi

--[x][Attack] To Trelli
No. of Votes: 4

VoidZero
ExNihilo
Kiba
kilopi505

-[x][Attack] Dragon Banner
No. of Votes: 3

VoidZero
kilopi505
Wiadi

--[X][Attack] To Western Ymaryn
No. of Votes: 3

sidestory
SeptimusMagisto
Spectrum

[X][Attack] Support Western Ymaryn Against Storm Tribes
No. of Votes: 2

Carrnage
Mortis

Total No. of Voters: 62

notgreat · Oct 12, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Mission creep is going to kill us one day.
This "one day" is uncomfortably close.

Yeah, I'm still surprised at how gung-ho people are for this war. I've been a huge proponent for it, but even if we're extremely lucky our next turn is gonna have to be something like

[Main] Enforce Justice
[Secondary] Enforce Justice
[Secondary] War Mission - Trelli
[Secondary] War Mission - Trelli x2
[Secondary] More Spiritbonded
[Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[Guild] Plant Poppies

And if things are going badly we'll have to switch to Offensive policy and do shit manually. It's pretty harsh no matter what.

PrimalShadow said:
We are going up to 7 as soon as our cities come back up.

No, we choose all of our policies. We'll be voting. And I strongly want at least 9 once we get our cities back up, heck maybe even 11. We need those Baths everywhere, because without them we're gonna be hit by even more plagues. And we apparently have some very nice Infrastructure possibilities now.
I'd be fine with grabbing the Ironworks manually, it really is an amazingly powerful option, but I highly suspect that we'll need to grab the Block Housing manually (since that's kinda the opposite of 'Community Health')

ctulhuslp · Oct 12, 2017

notgreat said:
Task: Attack

[34][Attack] Attempt to take the Trelli Strait
[19][Attack] Hire out mercenary company
-[17][Attack] Both
--[15][Attack] To Freehills
[8][Attack] No one
-[4][Attack] Red Banner
--[4][Attack] To Trelli
-[3][Attack] Dragon Banner
--[3][Attack] To Western Ymaryn
[2][Attack] Support Western Ymaryn Against Storm Tribes

Total No. of Voters: 62

Soo more than half of all voters are for wardeccing them.
I am tempted to just vote for conquest so that I can witness Ymaryn burning to the fucking ground while I am crowing to people that I told them that mission creep will kill us. That's be a dick move so I am not doing it, but temptation is there.
I don't even need to do anything but copypaste winning vote; we already starved ourselves for no fucking reason, now we are doing our best to overstretch ourselves so that we are definitely unable to put out the fires. Because it is apparently too easy to put a lid on existing problems or something.

Academia Nut said:
Cordial if distant. Assisting with troops will likely make them much friendlier.
Quite probably.

Hm. @10ebbor10 , you were asking about our relations with Freehills I believe; here you have it.

Kiba · Oct 12, 2017

@Academia Nut I assume that Ironwork Level 1 will cost us 3 sustainable forests, but you didn't mention anything about level 2 costing us additional forests?

Academia Nut said:
Ehhh... without a canal it wouldn't be entirely viable from either of the Thunder Speakers or Thunder Horse, but arrangements can be made.

Is it sufficient to just have a lowland canal? Or do we need to build a canal all the way to the Thunder Twin?

How feasible is that with our current level and population assuming that Dam+Canal is complete?

Raichu1972 · Oct 12, 2017

Academia Nut said:
Cordial if distant. Assisting with troops will likely make them much friendlier.
Quite probably.

This one is a bit... hmmm... simultaneously more ruthless and yet also understandable. There might be some internal dissent, but locking down Trelli would enormously help in dealing with bandits and pirates, and pretty much no one objects to dealing with those sorts of groups. From a geopolitical position, the straits are also important enough that "we need to ensure it stays open rather than the current chaos or pirates taking it" is considered a valid reason by neighbours, even ones that might want it for themselves.

Quick question if you don't mind answering AN, but do our generals think that we currently have enough naval power to properly contest the pirates and hold Trelli at the same time?

And better yet, is Trelli seen as close enough to be administered directly by the Core, or would it have to be administered as a vassal/colony?

PLP · Oct 12, 2017

[X] [HS] Prototype Deployment Organization (2xSec Blackmouth Colossal Walls, Reforms advance)

This seems to be the way to get an Engineering Corps so let's go with that.

ctulhuslp · Oct 12, 2017

notgreat said:
Yeah, I'm still surprised at how gung-ho people are for this war. I've been a huge proponent for it, but even if we're extremely lucky our next turn is gonna have to be something like

[Main] Enforce Justice
[Secondary] Enforce Justice
[Secondary] War Mission - Trelli
[Secondary] War Mission - Trelli x2
[Secondary] More Spiritbonded
[Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[Guild] Plant Poppies

And if things are going badly we'll have to switch to Offensive policy and do shit manually. It's pretty harsh no matter what.

No, we choose all of our policies. We'll be voting. And I strongly want at least 9 once we get our cities back up, heck maybe even 11. We need those Baths everywhere, because without them we're gonna be hit by even more plagues. And we apparently have some very nice Infrastructure possibilities now.
I'd be fine with grabbing the Ironworks manually, it really is an amazingly powerful option, but I highly suspect that we'll need to grab the Block Housing manually (since that's kinda the opposite of 'Community Health')

Yep.
If more people actually were aware of how risky it is and that it is not going to be a free lunch I wouldn't be so exasperated. But, like...people just don't realize that holding land is harder than acquiring it, especially in this case? And that we'd need to invest actions we are quite short on to get something out of it, and so on.

Legion0047 · Oct 12, 2017

@Academia Nut
Tin is still rare yes?
it's Easier to control then copper.
so bronze coins?
cause it's not like we use it for anything.

Chaff · Oct 12, 2017

[X] ctulhuslp

HeWhoAdds · Oct 12, 2017

sidestory said:

Care to point me towards the civ on the Yllthon Sea with a higher Naval score?

ctulhuslp said:
If more people actually were aware of how risky it is and that it is not going to be a free lunch I wouldn't be so exasperated. But, like...people just don't realize that holding land is harder than acquiring it, especially in this case? And that we'd need to invest actions we are quite short on to get something out of it, and so on.

Or maybe people think that you're overestimating the costs and drastically underestimating the benefits of controlling the straights?

ctulhuslp · Oct 12, 2017

Chaff said:
[X] ctulhuslp

*blushing internally*

OliWhail · Oct 12, 2017

Academia Nut said:
Cordial if distant. Assisting with troops will likely make them much friendlier.
Quite probably.

Basically, anybody worried about our own stability and anybody who doesn't want us directly embroiled in the Trelli conflict should vote to help Freehills take the strait.

LuciDreamer · Oct 12, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Soo more than half of all voters are for wardeccing them.
I am tempted to just vote for conquest so that I can witness Ymaryn burning to the fucking ground while I am crowing to people that I told them that mission creep will kill us. That's be a dick move so I am not doing it, but temptation is there.
I don't even need to do anything but copypaste winning vote; we already starved ourselves for no fucking reason, now we are doing our best to overstretch ourselves so that we are definitely unable to put out the fires. Because it is apparently too easy to put a lid on existing problems or something.

Hm. @10ebbor10 , you were asking about our relations with Freehills I believe; here you have it.

It's okay...

If we fuck up this incoming war and accompaning wide arrange of crises, we fracture. Badly. And the fallout will be so severe that we'll probably loose some of our colonies and a lot of our vassals. But the core lands will probably be fine, and after such a dramatic fall from grace this thread will probably be less inclined to pursue reckless expansion in the future. And if not... frankly, we'll deserve whatever comes for us.

Besides, we've left a lasting cultural footprint in the lands we do control. If it comes to a fracture, I imagine we'll be able to regain our lost territories in due time, without too many worries about cultural aversion.

I hate to sound like I'm preaching hope, but its all I've got at the moment...

Kiba · Oct 12, 2017

VoidZero said:
Blue sky prediction, never mind that it's raining cats and dogs in my area.

We will hit -4stability and fracture before we reach next turn.

At -2 stability now and +2 from EJ will not kick-in until next turn

-1 stability from combination of average war roll thus slow progress, general discontent from earlier starvation, and view of helping foreigners before citizens.

-1 stability from West Y defeat by Storm Wolfs.

I do not generally think we will lose stability if our war roll is garbage.

I think we will start taking WY refugee next turn which may be a potential loss of -1 stability.

VoidZero · Oct 12, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
*blushing internally*

Shipping in order i see.

-----
Also now that i think a bit more, block housing is social housing isn't it? With the related economy cost and benefits. Maybe it's a good idea to built in the less important city to see how it works exactly before pitching it in the population denser city like Valleyhome or Holy spirit city.

Built-in advanced plumbing, heating, and bathhouse would be very nice; that charcoal cost tho.

notgreat · Oct 12, 2017

LuciDreamer said:
I hate to sound like I'm preaching hope, but its all I've got at the moment...

The biggest loss of a fracture is that we'll lose the majority of our legacies.

+2 Upper Centralization Limit
-1 Lower Centralization Limit
+2 Hierarchy Tolerance
Reformers: Gain Culture based on total cost whenever completing a Social type megaproject
Rush Builders: Extended projects cost more per turn but complete faster
Rage Against the Steppes - Always have a casus belli with Subdue Tribe or Humiliate War Goal against steppe nomads
Early Empire: +1 Vassal slot
Early Iron Bringers: Materials advancement always a possibility during Golden Ages, regardless of available excesses
Steel Blooded: Expand Econ actions produce an extra +2 Econ
Protected Core: +1 March slot
One of Each (Five): +1 Periphery State, +1 Subordinate State
Vassal Lords (Five): Subordinates states less likely to break away
City Killers: Gain access to the Terrify diplomatic action against urban civilizations
The King Still Stands: Whenever someone uses the Take the Crown CB on you or you are engaged in a struggle for King of the Hill, every full turn they fail to knock you out they lose 1 Stability
Kings Do Not Kneel (Three): Gain +1 Martial every phase during a Take the Crown or Great Power war
Star Callers: Gain a Conquest CB for use against any neighbour during and one turn after a major astrological event
Hollowed Gold: Gilded Ages accessible early
Pure Gold: Prestige Golden Age bonuses possible whenever roll
Golden Wonders: Megaprojects and Wonder construction tracks always possible during Golden Ages

This right here is, well, a frankly insane level of bonuses that we've accumulated over the ages, and losing them will be a harsh blow.

Kiba said:
I do not generally think we will lose stability if our war roll is garbage.

I think we will start taking WY refugee next turn which may be a potential loss of -1 stability.

Agreed, we won't be breaking next turn by trying to attack Trelli.

Two or three turns down the line, however, will depend heavily on the events surrounding it. We will get ourselves to a very dangerous position by striking Trelli. I personally believe it's worth it since the potential benefits are significant, but it is a massive risk.

ctulhuslp · Oct 12, 2017

HeWhoAdds said:
Or maybe people think that you're overestimating the costs and drastically underestimating the benefits of controlling the straights?

*looks at the current clusterfuck*
*looks at how we were unable to know what is the Greenshore doing with our dudes in this very update*
Then you folks are way too optimistic and should reread first part of this update to get an idea of how problematic control of distant holdings is. Even our own holdings, not naked landgrabs of a true city with distinct cultural identity.

LuciDreamer said:
It's okay...

If we fuck up this incoming war and accompaning wide arrange of crises, we fracture. Badly. And the fallout will be so severe that we'll probably loose some of our colonies and a lot of our vassals. But the core lands will probably be fine, and after such a dramatic fall from grace this thread will probably be less inclined to pursue reckless expansion in the future. And if not... frankly, we'll deserve whatever comes for us.

Besides, we've left a lasting cultural footprint in the lands we do control. If it comes to a fracture, I imagine we'll be able to regain our lost territories in due time, without too many worries about cultural aversion.

I hate to sound like I'm preaching hope, but its all I've got at the moment...

I am not optimistic about it. If we were capable of learning from our mistakes and tempering appetite we wouldn't have a vote of "let us get another subordinate while incapable of controlling nominally loyal subordinates" going on.

Malevolo · Oct 12, 2017

[X] [SR] Food (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Econ/turn each)
[X] [HS] Increase Professionalism (Found Mercenary Company, Reforms advance)
[X] [Attack] Hire out mercenary company
-[X] [Attack] Both
--[X] [Attack] To Freehills
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)

Tweaked my plan a little, as of right now we are making enough martial per turn that we can send the banners to help Freehills, stay getting food from provinces as a way to fuel the core machine, and support the Vassals back to rise their Loyalty to us.

2xMachina · Oct 12, 2017

VoidZero said:
Blue sky prediction, never mind that it's raining cats and dogs in my area.

We will hit -4stability and fracture before we reach next turn.

At -2 stability now and +2 from EJ will not kick-in until next turn

-1 stability from combination of average war roll thus slow progress, general discontent from earlier starvation, and view of helping foreigners before citizens.

-1 stability from West Y defeat by Storm Wolfs.

Hmm, I don't think we're helping foreigners in any way.
No more of the slave freeing shit.

We're gonna be seen as:
1) Land grabbing (trader happy)
2) Piracy control (trader ecstatic, others happy)
which wouldn't piss anyone off internally.

PrimalShadow · Oct 12, 2017

notgreat said:
The biggest loss of a fracture is that we'll lose the majority of our legacies.

+2 Upper Centralization Limit
-1 Lower Centralization Limit
+2 Hierarchy Tolerance
Reformers: Gain Culture based on total cost whenever completing a Social type megaproject
Rush Builders: Extended projects cost more per turn but complete faster
Rage Against the Steppes - Always have a casus belli with Subdue Tribe or Humiliate War Goal against steppe nomads
Early Empire: +1 Vassal slot
Early Iron Bringers: Materials advancement always a possibility during Golden Ages, regardless of available excesses
Steel Blooded: Expand Econ actions produce an extra +2 Econ
Protected Core: +1 March slot
One of Each (Five): +1 Periphery State, +1 Subordinate State
Vassal Lords (Five): Subordinates states less likely to break away
City Killers: Gain access to the Terrify diplomatic action against urban civilizations
The King Still Stands: Whenever someone uses the Take the Crown CB on you or you are engaged in a struggle for King of the Hill, every full turn they fail to knock you out they lose 1 Stability
Kings Do Not Kneel (Three): Gain +1 Martial every phase during a Take the Crown or Great Power war
Star Callers: Gain a Conquest CB for use against any neighbour during and one turn after a major astrological event
Hollowed Gold: Gilded Ages accessible early
Pure Gold: Prestige Golden Age bonuses possible whenever roll
Golden Wonders: Megaprojects and Wonder construction tracks always possible during Golden Ages

This right here is, well, a frankly insane level of bonuses that we've accumulated over the ages, and losing them will be a harsh blow.

Yeah. Frankly, we could do without most of these, but a couple...

Rush Builders: Extended projects cost more per turn but complete faster
You thought our current extended project load was bad? Take a look at it once everything takes even more actions than it does already...

Steel Blooded: Expand Econ actions produce an extra +2 Econ
We just got this, and I already can't imagine going back to 3 econ/action, much less 2.

Pure Gold: Prestige Golden Age bonuses possible whenever roll
Golden Wonders: Megaprojects and Wonder construction tracks always possible during Golden Ages
Okay; maybe these aren't exactly necessary... but they are the shiniest of shinies. Especially the latter one; Megaproject Tracks are absolutely OP.

ctulhuslp · Oct 12, 2017

I think I'll take a break until the update, folks. See ya, have fun.

Random Member · Oct 12, 2017

Yes, why focus on solving our current problems when we can add another problem on the pile? Makes perfect sense.

Rakuhn · Oct 12, 2017

I'd just like to point out that the Western Ymaryn are about to be vassalized by nomads. That will mean that all of our technology is going to be funneled to the Steppes, and from there to the rest of the world (Steppe-China, Steppe->Mountain Horse->India, Steppe-> Germany).

We may want to support our brethren, if only to keep our technological advantage.

Paths of Civilization

Passing Flan 布丁魔王

Retired Shadowrunner.

Maliciously Incompetent

Passing Flan 布丁魔王

Gardener of Human Happiness