It clearly overextends us right now. Since we are already overextended, it is simply not acceptable. This is a case where the cure would be worse than the disease.
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Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
[X] [HS] Increase Iron production further (Redshore Ironworks [-3 Econ, -3 Tech, 2 Sustainable Forest used, Expand Econ additional +1 Econ, -1 EE, -1 Tech] + Sec Survey, Reforms advance)
[X] [Attack] Hire out mercenary company
-[X] [Attack] Both
--[X] [Attack] To Western Ymaryn
I was for attacking the Trelli before, but now that the negative effects of not doing it are gone, fuck it.
[X] [Attack] Hire out mercenary company
-[X] [Attack] Both
--[X] [Attack] To Western Ymaryn
I was for attacking the Trelli before, but now that the negative effects of not doing it are gone, fuck it.
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
[X] [SR] Food (Colonies and vassalstransfer 1 Econ/turn each)
[X] [HS] Increase Professionalism (Found Mercenary Company, Reforms advance)
[X] [Attack] Attempt to take the Trelli Strait
[X][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
I personally think that the fear over the difficulty of holding the straights is overblown. We'll be the only significant naval power on one end of the Not!Bosporos, so we'd actually be under less pressure than the Trelli were, and we've got the rest of our much larger and more populous civ to back us up. Not to mention this is a good chance to complete the Second Sons crisis.
[X] [HS] Increase Professionalism (Found Mercenary Company, Reforms advance)
[X] [Attack] Attempt to take the Trelli Strait
[X][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
I personally think that the fear over the difficulty of holding the straights is overblown. We'll be the only significant naval power on one end of the Not!Bosporos, so we'd actually be under less pressure than the Trelli were, and we've got the rest of our much larger and more populous civ to back us up. Not to mention this is a good chance to complete the Second Sons crisis.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Level 2 ironworks is, like, four secondaries worth though. And the passive policy will hopefully handle some of it.
We're looking to get 12 Econ incoming as of the start of next turn for a total of 18. 6 of that is going to pay the upkeep of our cities (unless the Free Cities go City Support), but the remaining 12 we can play with. A [Main] Influence Subordinate only costs 3 Econ.
As for the rest of our stats, we'll be fine as long as we take something the boosts Wealth during our Guild actions. We don't need much, even a lowly Porcelain Works would be enough. Plant Poppies is also an option, but it costs a bit more LTE. Either one would hopefully give us a Leading trade good to help increase Wealth further.
I'm hoping that creating a Merc company right now will end the Second Sons crisis. Even if it doesn't, we should still have the stats available.
We are likely to have 3 Merc companies that significantly out tech and out skill anyone that could attack them. Given Trelli likely has at least Massive Walls and is one of the most defensible locations on the planet, that should be more than overkill enough to beat back the bandits and pirates plaguing them. Sure, there might be more bandits numerically (provided they haven't gone to greener pastures or slaughtered each other), but concentration of force counts for a lot. Influencing them, at least to the point where they don't cause problems, should only take 1 [Main] action. Trelli is in the perfect position right now thematically in order to be responsive to being influenced. Our religion is even good at this.
Besides, I think that the Redshore Ironworks is a Secondary action. All of the other Mid-Turn reform actions (except Found Merc Company) are equivalent to a main action and the Ironworks is paired with a {S} Survey Land. We should still have room to do something like:
{M} Enforce Justice
{M} Influence Subordinate - Trelli
{S} Found Ironworks -Redshore
{S} Block Housing - Redshore
We can't start working on the Level 2 Ironworks without those two {S} actions so that as far as we can possibly advance the Guild quest right now. If Level 2 Ironworks is a Megaproject, then we'll likely have to go on Megaproject support the turn after next either way if we want to complete it.
We are worried about administrative pressure more than aggressive-neighbor pressure. We are taking a vassal who is at the edge of our logistical range and who has a completely different culture, while dealing with a bunch of other things taking up our time. That is not an effective formula for adding a subordinate to our empire.
Astra Stargazer
Comma Queen
- Location
- In a book, somewhere around here...
[X] [SR] Food (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Econ/turn each)
Grumble, grumble.
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X] [Attack] Attempt to take the Trelli Strait
That astrology prediction is a little too clear for me.
[X] [HS] Introduce an elite core (Sec More Spiritbonded + Sec Expand Econ, Reforms advance)
Dragoons here we come.
Grumble, grumble.
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X] [Attack] Attempt to take the Trelli Strait
That astrology prediction is a little too clear for me.
[X] [HS] Introduce an elite core (Sec More Spiritbonded + Sec Expand Econ, Reforms advance)
Dragoons here we come.
- Location
- Illinois
From what I understand, both the Tinriver Trading Post and Greenshore are farther than Trelli, and yet we can hold those without issue?
And you think managing Trell is going to cost meaningfully less than that? Even the Main Influence people are suggesting (which would make a good foundation but no more than that) is already two secondaries, plus more stats than the ironwork would have cost.
I'm talking abut L2 ironworks, not L1.
It isn't a megaproject; if it was, it wouldn't make sense to call the Extended Project we are doing level-one ironworks. And generally the cost fits exactly for a 6-progress extended project. In contrast, for a megaproject we typically wouldn't even know the exact cost.
They are also formed out of OUR people; they are a colony, not a vassal. It is significantly harder to hold a group that may not speak your language, respect your traditions, and follow your laws.
- Location
- Austria
1. They are closer or at roughly the same distance.
2. They are of 100% Ymaryn culture (well, by now with some deviation, but comparatively so). Trelli came into being by revolt from Hathatyn; I am pretty sure they have a national identity of some sort and are not going to be happy about us.
3. Why would they pay us taxes and obey us when they can rebuild their fleet, hire their typical half-dozen merc companies and tell us to fuck off?
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
Situations change. Trelli now is not the Trelli that was.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
^ that definitely happened. At the time the front page read 'martial lower than 3?' iirc
LuciDreamer
Maliciously Incompetent
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Fair enough, but aren't you at all worried that we won't actually be able to keep Trelli, even if we take the city? Sure, they're poor and weak now, but what exactly stops a culture literally built around the idea of the power of money from wanting to break away from our influence the second it gets back on its feet?
- Location
- Germany
Or it could be like the last time where we attacked them and they don't reach the Trelli in the first place due to the superior naval power of everybody else involved in this mess
We had several issues with far away colonies
I just point at the army recuitment of local tribes that Tinriver and more recent Amber Road performed, because there were in danger of attacks and we couldn't send proper support
Or the fact that Greenshore and Tinriver would have joined the Civil War had we choosen said option when it was still possible for the Second Son crisis
Let's not say anything about the danger Greenshore was in when the Metal workers where conquered by the nomad father-son combo
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Because obviously such actions are what caused the gods to smite them in the first place, duh. Religion is a powerful tool to influence societies.
- Location
- Austria
They will build back up and start asking very pointed questions about those weird tree hippies who don't even rampant capitalism.
And that assumes we will win; yes, this is the best shot we are going to get, but that does not mean it is worth it. I recall a lot of assumptions last time we took a shot too.
But yeah, taking it is easier part of the thing; holding them will be extremely hard. With some voting discipline it probably can be managed, but if we had voting discipline we wouldn't have starved, just to name an example.
That was only 'native' Martial, but requirement seems to look at the number in curly brackets, one after applying Swords and Ploughshares.
- Location
- Austria
I see no meteors.
Like, meteor is an obvious example of gods being displeased. Without such thing...well, if "economic crisis" was enough to make capitalists think that maybe there are problems with parts of capitalism (at least with 'unregulated' parts, which are going to be major point of cultural friction), we would be living in a different world.
LuciDreamer
Maliciously Incompetent
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Are the Trelli even a particularly reverent culture?
...if they are, that might work. Still highly doubt it, though.
Because our army will be stationed there, and then we rebuild their culture with power of religion and influence.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
"Did you sacrifice to the Sea God to give good winds?"
"Yup."
"Cool. Let's go make money!"
- Location
- Austria
> rebuild their culture
Hahahahaha what?
How do you imagine the process of erasing diametrally opposed culture? The only thing that reliably works (for a definition of "works") is...genocide, I guess.
Like really, cultural conversion is hard. Not impossible, especially with PiA, but we've never tried to use it to process so many people with no reason at all to listen to us.
LuciDreamer
Maliciously Incompetent
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This ain't EUIV. We can't just spend 204 Diplomatic Monarch Points and magically make the Trelli tree hippies after a few months.
What you're describing only works quickly if the people we're occupying are significantly less developed than us. This isn't the case - the Trelli are a modern (by our standards) society. The path to cultural conversion is gonna be a long, long winding road.
Our army there will be reason enough, though. They wouldn't be able to make money if they don't follow the rules we enforce, the lowest will be swept by our religion and influence would dilute middle class, and in three turns it'll just be the way things were always done. And, well, our army would be still there to deal with troublemakers.
Though, yeah, I agree that it wouldn't as easy as Txolla.
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- Location
- Austria
To add here.
That "Culture convert" button in EU4 is unrealistic as fuck. Cultures can resist any and all attempts of conversion for centuries only to get reborn in a heartbeat; and by attempts of conversion I mean "Russia banned Ukrainian books for ~3 centuries and forbade it in a lot of settings but Ukrainian identity, if anything, grew stronger"; or UK in India; of Scotland vs UK; or Catalonia vs Spain; or Tibet vs China; or, or or....
Point is, cultural conversion is not really a thing; at the very least, not a reliable or easy one.
Give me a historical example of cultural conversion with force within, like, less than 400 years or so.
Oh, wait, "3 turns"? Lol, if you say so. Then give me one fucking example of cultural conversion within 60 years.
EDIT: I guess you could count Expulsion of Moors as one? I mean, forced resettlement of ~300 000 people is the closest to non-violent (for a definition of "non-violence") cultural conversion I can recall off the top of my head. If you have a working example of converting a culture in under a century, go ahead.
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