[X] [SR] Warriors (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Martial/turn each)
[X] [HS] Prototype Deployment Organization (2xSec Blackmouth Colossal Walls, Reforms advance)
[X] [Attack] Hire out mercenary company
-[X] [Attack] Both
--[X] [Attack] To Freehills
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)

We should hire out the mercenaries, if only so that we don't have to pay their cost right now. Since I don't care to rush for the straits, let's give Freehills a leg up since they're the least worst owner the straits can have.

EDIT : nevermind then
 
That would be more reason to not follow the prediction.

And in fact we know that Astrological rolls are d100, seeing as AN had outright stated that we rolled a Nat 100 for the Meteor Txolla event. Which isn't possible unless the die roll is on a d100.
My point is that if it is just randomly generated it is not something we should consider either way, because by random chance it could be right just as it could be wrong.
On the other hand, I expect narrative impacts if we try and actively follow or go against predictions, so ...
 
HS: Getting at least +2 Econ/turn income and likely more with PSN and other things makes this kinda a no-brainer, particularly since it might help us figure out how to get the all-powerful level 2 ironworks which, y'know, FREE MEGAPROJECT.

We know how to get that, though, we need to grab Block Housing in a True City and then from there it's another infrastructure project. We can actually manage it with a secondary next turn, I think? Then again it might need to be in Redshore or Blackmouth specifically...
 
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[X] [SR] Money (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Wealth/turn each)
[X] [HS] Increase Iron production further (Redshore Ironworks [-3 Econ, -3 Tech, 2 Sustainable Forest used, Expand Econ additional +1 Econ, -1 EE, -1 Tech] + Sec Survey, Reforms advance)
[X] [HS] Introduce an elite core (Sec More Spiritbonded + Sec Expand Econ, Reforms advance)
[X] [Attack] Hire out mercenary company
-[X] [Attack] Both
--[X] [Attack] To Western Ymaryn
[X] [Attack] Hire out mercenary company
-[X] [Attack] Both
--[X] [Attack] To Freehills
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 Econ cost for True City support negated)

Reasons:
Money in order to help with out liquid crisis and cause we know paying in food doesn't work out over longer distance as tax

Choosing Iron cause it would further increase our EE action and wouldn't ruin us food wise
Choosing more Spiritbounded in order to further our patrician quest, which are one success away from bringing their power to our state
Choosing to hire out our Mercs to the WY, cause while I hate these guys with a passion I don't want the nomads to get all out tech, so I can't allow them to be conquered

Choosing City support cause with Panem and our upcoming city's not choosing it will ruin us in the long run if only by forcing us to expand econ every turn
Adhoc vote count started by sidestory on Oct 12, 2017 at 2:25 AM, finished with 114184 posts and 22 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by sidestory on Oct 13, 2017 at 11:02 AM, finished with 115150 posts and 81 votes.
 
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That would be more reason to not follow the prediction.

And in fact we know that Astrological rolls are d100, seeing as AN had outright stated that we rolled a Nat 100 for the Meteor Txolla event. Which isn't possible unless the die roll is on a d100.
I thought it was agreed that the Astrological prediction might not be talking about the Trelli at all. It might be about attacking one group, or attacking all groups. AN refused to clarify, and this might be our roll to predict the future, not that the future is predicted to be a bad thing. It might be a good thing and we just can't see that now is a good time to attack the Trelli.
 
My point is that if it is just randomly generated it is not something we should consider either way, because by random chance it could be right just as it could be wrong.
On the other hand, I expect narrative impacts if we try and actively follow or go against predictions, so ...
I think it's a terrible idea. Our traits force us to hold any land we take, either via vassals or our own troops. Or eat STAB damage.

And we're overstretched, wanting to improve Cent and our Subordinate limits past the safe zone already.

We can't afford to take the Trelli Straits, because we'd have to hold the Trelli Straits and manage them.
 
People, we should really be hiring our mercs out. We're raising an army to cover the home front, so we should hire out at least one mercenary company so we don't need to keep paying their wages.
 
I honestly don't think we should bother grabbing the Trelli's territory. Our admin capabilities are stretched thin as they are...not to mention the Gull Valley canal will give us access to the sea on top of fucking over anyone who claims the straits.

Edit: Thanks for catching the error Oni
 
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Hmm, better AND worse than expected.

Couple of stat highlights:
-Diplomacy 16 [+4]
--Intrigue 4

We have plenty of Diplomacy passive for the Colony stunt.

-Economy 6 [-6]
--Sustainable Forests 24/27.5
--Econ Expansion 18 [+6]

We got 14 Econ next main turn.

-Martial 11 (+1) {13}
--Light Cavalry 1
-Naval 2

We actually have a lot of Martial now!
Taking Trell with the Banners can work

-Wealth 8 [-1]

Wealth is okay, but there's a drip out.

-Stability -2 (fearful)

We're 2 Stab from death. 1 Stab from carnage. Actions should take that into account...and we got a -1 incoming. We can't take any Stab options this mid turn, but we will wind up at -1 Stab next main turn if we do nothing

-Centralization 6

Unsurprisingly the goal is distant yet.

Second Son Crisis - Lesser warriors are flowing outward, attacking outsiders and risk bringing retribution to the rest of the People. They must be reined in, but once the seed of the frontier has been planted it is hard to uproot. Causes trouble each turn, may end on its own but can be definitively ended with: Max Legitimacy? and 2 of (Cent Greater than 5?, Martial Less than 5, Yeomen Power 0?); or a Civil War

Second Sons has identified that Cent doesn't need to be maxed anymore, but Martial still needs to be below 5 and Yeomen power still needs to drop.
-Northern Blackriver [0/6]
-Far North-Eastern Redvalley [2/6]
-<Unknown Interior Provinces from Land Reform>
Noting that Land Reform will increase province count.

-Western Wall - 5+ Provinces (4 Being Integrated)
-Greenshore - 3 Provinces (0 Ready to Integrate)
-Gulvalley - 1 Province (1 Ready to Integrate) [Expansion Blocked by Neighbors]
-Heaven's Hawk - 1 Province (1 Ready to Integrate) [March, may not be able to expand peacefully?]
-Txolla - 3 Provinces (2 Ready to Integrate) [Underdeveloped; can gain more provinces internally]
-Tinriver - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Mature Trading Post, cannot expand, can be transitioned to colony]
-Thunder Speakers - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Seems Low, but they only get 2 actions?]
-Thunder Horse - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Same]
-Amber Road - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Immature Trading Post, cannot expand]
Western Wall is enormously oversized.
Txolla can probably be eaten soon.

Centralization Tolerances:
[Low Tolerance: "Neutral" - 3]​
-Government Base ("Neutral")
-Legacies (-1)
-2 Governor's Palaces (-2)
[High Tolerance: "High" + 5]​
-Government Base ("High")
-15 Interconnectivity (+5)
-Legacies (+2)
-10 Provinces (0)
-0 Non-Supported True Cities (0)
-2 Governor's Palaces (-2)
We now know our Centralization tolerances modifiers more explicitly.
Min is 0, we've been there (so the min base is 3 for our model)
Max is at least at 8, if the max is the same as the min. Assuming a range of 5 between min and max at base, we're looking at a max of 16(?!)...so I probably made some bad math here.


Patricians (5*) - Objective: Have Light cavalry above 3 within 2 turns. Success: Free equestrian tech
Guild (6) - Power: Half faction power added to Max Wealth. Objective: Have a Level 2 Ironworks within 3 turns. Success: Free random megaproject AN: Yes, an entire megaproject, in a single turn, no charge
Traders (3*)
- Objective: Conquer Trelli within 1 turn. Failure: Civil War (Suppressible)
Yeomen (3*)- Objective: Finish internal reorg within 2 turns. Success: Half current EE converted to Econ, Failure: -2 Econ
Priests (3)- Objective: Have maximum Econ within 3 turns. Success: Free Spiritual Value slot
Urban Poor (3*) - Build 1 more baths within 2 turns. Success: Urban Plague status removed early. Failure: Patricians and Guilds -1 Power, Yeomen +1 Power
These counters iterate at the next mid-turn. The numbers in brackets indicate the general faction strength.
By Crow, the Guilds have gone Berserk.

New value attached to PiA
Division of Power
By preventing the accumulation of power into any single person or faction, the damage of someone throwing a tantrum is mitigated... although it also makes breaking up widespread support harder.
Pros: Faction quest failures have a free negation, requiring two completed quests or Support Faction actions to reset. Unsuppressible failure states become Suppressible
Cons: Addition -1 Stability when suppressing factions
Sweet value, though it makes suppressing Yeomen to be harder.

Colony taxes
[] [SR] Money (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Wealth/turn each)
[] [SR] Food (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Econ/turn each)
[] [SR] Warriors (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Martial/turn each)
[] [SR] Rotate governors (All periphery states with at least one province cost -1 Diplo/turn each turn, have Min. 2 Loyalty)

The taxes are nice, though Governor Rotation is the only one that really addresses issues long term...it'd cost -9 Diplomacy per turn and we only have a +4. If we take up Governor Rotation we'd have to absorb Heaven's Hawks and Gulvalley ASAP.

Anyway current situation, Food would give us +6 Econ income and basically write off the Panem burden. Easy pick here.

[] [HS] Main Build Gymnasium (Does not advance Reforms, +1 Stability)

Wealth 7{8-1}-3 = 4 (guild panic possible), Culture 24-3 = 21, Stability -1{-2-1+2}+1= 0

Not a bad option, but slows things down. We do need Stability badly however, and low Wealth means we'd be forced to take an expensive cash crop next turn or lose it anyways.

[] [HS] Prototype Weapon Storage (Palace Arsenal + Storehouse Annexes, Reforms advance)

Econ 14{6+8}-4 (+4-6) = 10 (-2, 4/9+1(once the storehouse comes in) temp econ damage capacity left), Culture 24-4 = 20

Reasonably safe...if we tax our subordinates in Econ. Otherwise please don't.

[] [HS] Center Command on the Cities (Blackmouth becomes a Free City, Reforms advance)

(at this point I run out of lunchtime, so no more full math)
This costs 2 Econ and 2 Econ Expansion, but reduces the Econ upkeep by 1 and adds another random policy. Neutral option. Doesn't make things worse at least?

[] [HS] Continue raising troops (Main Raise Army, Reforms advance)

Econ -3, Wealth -5. Live dangerously

[] [HS] Prototype Deployment Organization (2xSec Blackmouth Colossal Walls, Reforms advance)

Econ -6, Martial -2. This will bring us dangerously low on Econ next turn even with the Subordinate Food Tax.

[] [HS] Increase Professionalism (Found Mercenary Company, Reforms advance)

Martial -8(which brings us below the Second Son threshold), Wealth drain increased by 1.
This is good if we're taking a swing at Trell I think.

[] [HS] Increase Iron production further (Redshore Ironworks [-3 Econ, -3 Tech, 2 Sustainable Forest used, Expand Econ additional +1 Econ, -1 EE, -1 Tech] + Sec Survey, Reforms advance)

Not sure what's going on here, but this should progress us towards the Guild mission, provided we take the Food tax to you know, not die.

[] [HS] Introduce an elite core (Sec More Spiritbonded + Sec Expand Econ, Reforms advance)

Econ -2, Mysticism -2, Wealth -5, Martial +2, Culture +1, Light Cavalry +1

This is good if we're taking a swing at the Storm Tribes, but the Wealth cost will trigger guild panic.

Army use
[] [Attack] No one
[] [Attack] Hire out mercenary company
-[] [Attack] Red Banner
-[] [Attack] Dragon Banner
-[] [Attack] Both
--[] [Attack] To Trelli
--[] [Attack] To Freehills
--[] [Attack] To Western Ymaryn
[] [Attack] Support Western Ymaryn Against Storm Tribes
[] [Attack] Attempt to take the Trelli Strait

I'd suggest to take the Trelli Strait, based on the astrology. It's an average roll, so we can test it out.

Select new passive policy
[] [Policy] Agriculture (+1 Econ and -1 Econ Expansion/turn)
[] [Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[] [Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[] [Policy] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn)
[] [Policy] Armament (+1 Martial/turn)
[] [Policy] Patronage (+1 Culture/turn)
[] [Policy] Mysticism (+1 Mysticism/turn)
[] [Policy] Industry (+1 Tech/turn)
[] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[] [Policy] Expansion (So long as there is land to expand into, +1 Econ Expansion/turn, reduces threshold to produce new provinces the longer active)
[] [Policy] Innovation (Extra 2 innovation rolls each turn, -1 Wealth)
[] [Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[] [Policy] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn) x1
[] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x1
[] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)

City Support is mandatory unless we're taking the Food Tax.
Still helpful even with the tax too.
Otherwise we hadn't gone wrong with Infrastructure yet. We need Infrastructure policies to build Ironworks for free after all.

So personal vote:
[X] [SR] Food (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Econ/turn each)
[X] [HS] Prototype Weapon Storage (Palace Arsenal + Storehouse Annexes, Reforms advance)
[X] [HS] Increase Professionalism (Found Mercenary Company, Reforms advance)
[X] [Attack] Attempt to take the Trelli Strait
[X] [Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)

Food: This is simply to offset the Panem.
Weapon Storage: This is kind of important to the reforms for arms control...and the thing with arms control is that if you don't have it controlled from the start, it's going to be hard to get the weapons back AFTER they've gone out.
Merc: To try to resolve Second Son
Trelli Strait: Based on the prediction this is a good time to do it. We have the Martial to do it and during the Mid Turn nobody else is going to arrive yet.
Infrastructure: To progress the Guild quest without running our Econ dry.
City Support: This is approval voting in case we wind up with a nasty combo of econ costs and need it to not die.
Vassal Support: N1eeded for Trell room
 
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Breach of Rule 4.
I think it's a terrible idea. Our traits force us to hold any land we take, either via vassals or our own troops. Or eat STAB damage.

And we're overstretched, wanting to improve Cent and our Subordinate limits past the safe zone already.

We can't afford to take the Trelli Straits, because we'd have to hold the Trelli Straits and manage them.
Since that statement had nothing to do with the astrology, or anything I said before, I'm just going to mark this down as a win.
 
First of all, something I didn't notice on the first pass through: WE'RE NOT GETTING MINIMUM CENTRALIZATION FROM AN ENFORCE JUSTICE.
This is unprecedented. Not that major, but it is important to note that it can actually happen despite all the previous attempts.


Note that next turn we will recover at least 2 additional cities, and quite possibly even more.

Anyway, here's my provincial vote since I kinda need to sleep sadly.

[X][SR] Food (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Econ/turn each)
[X] [HS] Increase Iron production further (Redshore Ironworks [-3 Econ, -3 Tech, 2 Sustainable Forest used, Expand Econ additional +1 Econ, -1 EE, -1 Tech] + Sec Survey, Reforms advance)
[X] [Attack] Attempt to take the Trelli Strait
[X] [Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)

SR: I'm not sure on this, but lots of extra econ is always nice and the diplo cost of rotating admin is scary.

HS: Getting at least +2 Econ/turn income and likely more with PSN and other things makes this kinda a no-brainer, particularly since it might help us figure out how to get the all-powerful level 2 ironworks which, y'know, FREE MEGAPROJECT.

Attack: I've been a strong proponent of attacking Trelli for a while. With our unexpected Martial 11 (seriously how did we get that) I think we have a reasonable chance there. And even if not, we need to dump the Martial anyway. This is very much a risk, but one that I believe is worth it. I will admit I am somewhat surprised at the number of proponents for it, as it is going to push us right up to the breaking point. Unquestionably. DO NOT VOTE FOR THIS IF YOU AREN'T WILLING TO GAMBLE A LOT ON IT.

I'm willing to take the risk, but it seems like a lot of voters here think it will be easy. It won't. I personally think it's worth it and the Astrological prediction seems to be in favor... but that isn't a safe bet.

Policy: Infrastructure is incredibly powerful and efficient, and we really do have a lot of things that we want to get done and more are being constantly added.
Forestry is unnecessary for a bit while we ramp up our Charcoal Kilns. It'll be important to get a couple more on now that we have massive iron production capabilities, but that's not a short term need.
Vassal Support would be very nice but we definitely won't be using it next turn whereas +2 progress (5 to 7) means that another Extended Project gets mostly completed. We're virtually guaranteed to get more policies next turn as cities free up, and I'm certainly in favor of adding 1 or 2 of these then.
City Support is +2 Econ/turn. With [SR] Food, that's really just not necessary anymore, especially with the extra Ironworks making us get +5 econ/action.


The negation for Traders is currently available. Once we use it, it is unavailable until those conditions have been met.

I am basically only into Trelli war due to asteology. Maybe should rent mercs to Freehills, for whom holding will be easier?
 
I honestly don't think we should bother grabbing the Trelli's territory. Our admin capabilities are stretched thin as they are...not to mention the Triangle canal will give us access to the sea on top of fucking over anyone who claims the straits.
You mean the Gulvalley Canal. The Triangle canal is for the North Steppe.

E: By the way @thread calling it now we are going to try for the strait. I can see where the vote is going.

Word of warning this course is dangerous. It is dangerous due to three things:

One, the bandits, free pirates, and Pirate King are all in the area threatening it. We would have to be lucky and get our forces and banners into the city and set up before these entities come swinging.

Two, Lords Loyalty means we must devote martial of some form to the defense of Trelli which may be just our banners I can't recall personally if they count for the commitment.

Three, Personal Stewards of Nature means that we can lose stability if we try to take it and then someone gets the upper hand on us. A thing to remember this is at the very edge of our logistics range, we will have difficulties with supply here.
 
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I honestly don't think we should bother grabbing the Trelli's territory. Our admin capabilities are stretched thin as they are...not to mention the Triangle canal will give us access to the sea on top of fucking over anyone who claims the straits.

The Triangle Canal will make the Stallion Tribe a transportation hub, not give us access to a new sea.
 
[X] [HS] Increase Professionalism (Found Mercenary Company, Reforms advance)
[X] [Attack] No one

We really don't need any more complications right now, and Division of Power has removed our only cost for staying the hell out of the Trelli clusterfuck. Mercenary Company should keep our Martial down so we can try and end the Second Sons crisis this coming turn, since Suppressing Yeomen just got even more painful. I want governor rotation for the Subordinate Reform but I acknowledge we probably can't pay for that right now (maybe see if we can do it later once we get the International Games back online?), so not sure what to do with that vote, and Policies are the sort of mechanical intricacy I'll leave to people who've put more effort into the math.
 
Re: Trelli Vote

>Below Average (38 on d100) Astrological roll to attack.
>Vague Astrological omens (Yeah maybe we should attack the Western Ymaryn? Maybe we should strike out the Governors???).
>Dealing with Second Sons Crisis
>NO NEGATIVES FOR FAILING
>Issues with attacks (Naval 2 vs Pirates, Trelli is in a mess, attacking over the sea)
>Problems with holding the Trelli (13/14 Subordinates, Organization difficulties because ITS OVER THE SEA)
>Problems with not holding Trelli straits (Personal Stewards of Nature, Lord's Loyalty, take your pick)
>Everything else we want to do (Ironworks Level 2, Enforce Justice, STABILITY, Roads)
>Totally against Ymaryn values of not prosecuting offensive wars for gains.
>Everyone thinking the Trelli are easy bait.
>STUFF ON FIRE AT HOME
>Minimal benefit from taking Trelli Straits (Natural wonder, wealth drip.. yawn.)
>The Trelli Straits ARE FAR AWAY
>NAKED LANDGRAB
>Majority voting to take Trelli Straits anyway.
 
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Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Killer_Whale on Oct 12, 2017 at 2:23 AM, finished with 114180 posts and 22 votes.
 
@veekie , how about instead of gambling on taking and holdibg Trelli we help Freehills take it? For them holding it will be immensely eaiser, and we basically get whst we want (right of passing through) witgout constantly bothering to protect it.

Like, for all who consider Trelli valuable: you know why they were racking in mad dosh? Because they are between Black Sea and Med.
And you kniw what? We, at this point, control more or less entirety of Black Sea, barring Freehills. It won't be as ludicrously profitable for us because of it, most of that is covered by right of passage and longer logistical reach.
 
Attacking the Trelli is a horrifically bad idea for at least a dozen distinct reasons, even if we succeed. It's bad if we fail and worse if we succeed.
 
[X] [SR] Food (Colonies and vassals transfer 1 Econ/turn each)
[X] [HS] Increase Professionalism (Found Mercenary Company, Reforms advance)
[X] [Attack] Support Western Ymaryn Against Storm Tribes
[X] [Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
 
I mean, it still counts as acting by prediction, while installing friendly-ish government for which using Trelli will be way easier than for us. Less return, but requires almost no investment - just hire out mercs, help Freehills take it, enjoy right of passage without having to bother with protecting it.
 
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