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Paths of Civilization

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SpeckofStardust said:
Veekie made another wonderful admen vote
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You'd think people would stop listening to veekie about admin stuff after the first 4 admin votes caused us to spontaneously combust.

Like, I can't tell if he's just that persuasive, or if SV has no pattern recognition.

Still, minus the 'poppies' thing, it wasn't a totally horrible choice.
 
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Citino said:
As far as I'm aware, the yeomen don't have power at the top though? The patricians are pretty firmly in command of that, with only a small number of other factions most talented managing to climb the ranks of the army to become a commander.

I mean, in theory, a yeoman might be good enough to rise to a command position, but they then tend to get incorporated into the patricians anyways, so it's not exactly a major source of power for the yeomen. The Harmysyn Reform just makes it so the patricians have a larger pool of people they can turn into commanders, which is good if we want a good pool of competent officers, but it really doesn't affect the yeomen as far as I can tell.
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At the same time though, why would we need remove all our martial if it did not affect them so much? According to veekie, only about 10% percent of our farmers are actually Yeomen. If they were only foot soldiers, reducing martial so much would not affect them to the degree of running away.


The point I was trying to make is that we are trying to remove martial power from the Yeomen. One does it one way, the other does it another.
Concho117 said:
Hi everyone!
I'm back!
What have I missed?
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I cannot haiku
this is hard enough already
vote Harmysyn pls?
 
Concho117 said:
Hi everyone!
I'm back!
What have I missed?
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The good news is we're warm! The bad news is that's because we're on fire. Turns out rolling in charcoal doesn't help with the last bit.

More seriously, we capped Martial during our Golden Age, so a lot of our people left to go attack the Storm Tribes to the east, which was not good and also bad. Our prophet started a new religion, Myth Illiad, and we got a different genius who got us Damascus steel. Then a plague happened, the Golden Age ended, we booted Nemesis Fashion, and a whole lot other stuff happened that I wasn't there for. Afterwards, a currency crisis happened because we were running out of shinies, which we resolved, kind of, but the Trelli accidentally exploded because of it, which is proving a very mixed blessing. Also, those people who went to go attack the Storm Tribes made their own country, but with hookers and blackjack, and people are still leaving.

I think that's everything?
 
Sivantic said:
At the same time though, why would we need remove all our martial if it did not affect them so much? According to veekie, only about 10% percent of our farmers are actually Yeomen. If they were only foot soldiers, reducing martial so much would not affect them to the degree of running away.


The point I was trying to make is that we are trying to remove martial power from the Yeomen. One does it one way, the other does it another.
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But the yeomen fill out the lower ranks, not the higher one? Veekie's point about the M-Reforms is that it removes the yeomen as a cornerstone of our military forces, and replaces them with the far more dependable(read: dependent) urban poor.

But the H-Reforms only increase the power of the patricians in an area that the yeomen don't have much influence over, as far as I am aware.

Can you explain why adding women to the officer corp would reduce the power of the yeomen? I'm not sure I'm really getting what you're getting at when you say that both reforms weaken the yeomen.
 
Concho117 said:
Did we end up unlocking Intrigue?
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Yep. Turns out all those hints about the shadow king being a thing was pretty much a giant neon sign saying "IF YOU WANT INTRIGUE OPTIONS, THEN PICK THIS OPTION".

Which we then proceeded to blissfully ignore, assuming it was a trap. :V

Concho117 said:
And what happened to nomming the Trelli and HK?
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HK are now isolated and utterly paranoid, as well as completely outclassed by the Ymaryn in every way, shape and form. Aka too annoying to actually conquer, with not enough benifit to do so.

Trelli managed to tie us up in a war until they could force us to the peace table with only minor losses. Now that they imploded, we might have a chance to take them next turn.
 
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Citino said:
But the yeomen fill out the lower ranks, not the higher one? Veekie's point about the M-Reforms is that it removes the yeomen as a cornerstone of our military forces, and replaces them with the far more dependable(read: dependent) urban poor.

But the H-Reforms only increase the power of the patricians in an area that the yeomen don't have much influence over, as far as I am aware.

Can you explain why adding women to the officer corp would reduce the power of the yeomen? I'm not sure I'm really getting what you're getting at when you say that both reforms weaken the yeomen.
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The yeomen fill out some of the middle ranks. They are only about 10% of our farmers. I doubt they constitute the majority of our forces. Most of our forces after all were conscripts with hard wedges of elite warriors. The elite warriors come from two classes, the yeomanry and the partricians. Myranyn blots up the conscripts to reduce the need and effect of elite warriors. Harmysyn goes at the other way by taking up more of those elite warriors slots.

They both attempt to make the yeomen irrelevant in the military.

Concho117 said:
Did we end up unlocking Intrigue?
And what happened to nomming the Trelli and HK?
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Cannot nom. They blew up like a cake and now pirates are everywhere :V

Highland Kingdom is hiding.

[] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
Creates women officers. They need your vote! >3<
 
Concho117 said:
Did we end up unlocking Intrigue?
And what happened to nomming the Trelli and HK?
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As to nomming the Trelli we all collectively realized it is a gigantic pain in the keister to haul our scaly butts over there. Then they exploded annnnnddddd... well our traders have a quest saying "Conquer them by next mid turn or we civil war". The dicks. Luckily we can suppress them and not have a civil war or the but pain of trying and failing to conquer the remnants though that will mean leaving it to pirates which is a problem we will have to deal with eventually.

The HK have closed their sphincters so tight they've basically disappeared. Not heard much from them actually.
 
PrimalShadow said:
WY are NOT our "confirmed successor". They (and any successors they have) are merely stated to count as our successors; i.e. if we die, they are one of our OPTIONS for who to play as later. That doesn't detract from your point, but I wanted to bring it up.

More pertinently. If we take over the WY, we will almost certainly lose a bunch of our Legacies, and maybe even a number of Values - but lets set that aside for now, since it is ambiguous. What isn't ambiguous is the infrastructure losses. We will be starting over with our road progress, wall progress, forest progress, and so on. We will have lost the Ironworks, our Docks, our Palace, our Observatory, our Temples/Libraries/Salterns/GPs, our cities with everything in them, and most of our trade / industrial production. I think I don't exaggerate when I say that these losses would take centuries to recover from, and even that only if we aren't forced to focus our attention elsewhere. At the very least, we will be losing all the technological and cultural progress that would have been produced by all this infrastructure; and more realistically, we would also have lost whatever output might have been produced by our actions if we didn't have to spend our time rebuilding everything we had once had.

If you think that this innovation is worth risking literally centuries of progress, if not more, then go ahead. But I'll be voting against you.
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I meant "confirmed successor" in the sense that it is confirmed that we will have at least one successor option that is currently extant (thereby lessening the risk that a large time gap between fracture and resumption of control would lead to more severe backsliding).

You do have a strong point regarding infrastructure, though reading over it I'm realizing that I allowed the flow of debate to sidetrack me from the point I was originally trying to make. Basically: I will concede that fracture would cause significant damage to our infrastructure, which is strong reason to try and avoid it. I think that it's possible to resolve the Second Sons Crisis through other (i.e. the already-given) methods, and that doing so will quite possibly be quicker than completing an event chain anyway, so I feel that my vote isn't actually putting us at risk of collapse - you'll note that I am exercising moderation and not voting for Both. This is an assessment with which you can disagree, but it is the one underpinning my vote, not just a rosy view of the consequences of collapse.

The point I was originally trying to make, and which I stand by, is that risk of collapse is superior to sacrificing all higher aims (freeing slaves, avoiding moral bankruptcy, etc.) on the altar of survival. Unfortunately I let myself get diverted by the classic mistake of arguing against whatever arguments were brought against me, regardless of relevance to the initial point. Only in the original dichotomy should a meaningful risk of collapse be viewed as a relative positive. When more moderate outcomes are present - for instance, taking another different social reform - it is more reasonable to moderate one's own position in turn. I will note, again, that I am not taking the MAXIMUM REFORM option (which I believe quite possibly would collapse us).

TL;DR: I agree that collapse is bad and let myself get sidetracked into defending points I didn't actually want to make, which is my bad, so sorry about that.
 
Sivantic said:
The yeomen fill out some of the middle ranks. They are only about 10% of our farmers. I doubt they constitute the majority of our forces. Most of our forces after all were conscripts with hard wedges of elite warriors. The elite warriors come from two classes, the yeomanry and the partricians. Myranyn blots up the conscripts to reduce the need and effect of elite warriors. Harmysyn goes at the other way by taking up more of those elite warriors slots.

They both attempt to make the yeomen irrelevant in the military.
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The yeomen are likely disproportionately present in the military compared to the farmers, so while they may only be 10% of the farmers, due to their higher martial bent and greater resources, they are far more likely to join the military than a poor farmer would. Not to mention second sons of yeomen would be far more inclined to join the military than sons of poor farmers.

Not to mention that the rural population is, what, 90% of our total population? So 10% of that still means that 9% of our population is yeomen, which I believe is quite enough to produce enough second sons to outfit the military needs of the ymaryn alone, at least during peace times.

Also, most evidence points to the patricians holding the vast majority of command positions. There are almost certainly some yeomen in positions of command, but it is unlikely to be a large percent of the total command class.

Compared to removing a large number of yeomen from the armed forces, changing the officer corp doesn't seem nearly as effective.

Then again, I can barely tell how these reforms will be put into practice, so...
 
Wiadi said:
The point I was originally trying to make, and which I stand by, is that risk of collapse is superior to sacrificing all higher aims (freeing slaves, avoiding moral bankruptcy, etc.) on the altar of survival.
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Here's my view: the most important thing for human progress in general is continuity. Very few goals outweigh that consideration.

If you want to free slaves, give women more right, etc, survival of our civilization against collapse should be on top of our list.

Because if we collapse, it will takes centuries, if not thousand of years to recover what we had lost.
 
Kiba said:
Because if we collapse, it will takes centuries, if not thousand of years to recover what we had lost.
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Well, unless our religion really takes off and starts building libraries and temples in every nation it gets its roots into.

That's the one thing that people forget about organized religion. They're pretty good at preserving stuff from fallen empires.

Hell, despite the bad rep the Catholic church gets, it did pretty well in keeping europe from completely immolating itself after the fall of Rome. Not to mention it spearheaded the revival of a ton of arts and sciences later on, including the renaissance.
 
I wonder what the highland kingdom are like now, last we heard of them they went rather rigid due to our econ vampirism.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by 8bitBob on Oct 6, 2017 at 11:10 PM, finished with 112601 posts and 86 votes.
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