Besides, are we actually sure these reforms are meant to take care of the Second Son Crisis? Because I can see how people would come to that conclusion, but a different interpretation actually makes me think that it might be more about increasing our low Martial rather than stopping the Crisis completely.
Maybe slapping together armies from the Urban Poor plus all the other stuff we're doing will solve it. I think it's our best chance to resolve the Second Sons Crisis 'peacefully', although that's a very low bar to clear.
 
[X] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
Adhoc vote count started by FortTell on Oct 6, 2017 at 3:05 PM, finished with 417 posts and 75 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by FortTell on Oct 6, 2017 at 3:06 PM, finished with 417 posts and 75 votes.
 
See above: I am far from sure, but it might be noble ploy to claw back power via de-facto personal levees. Again, only speculation, but....to be frank, I am paranoid about any free anarchronistic breakthrough without hefty pricetag attached, because there is always some price.
A price we already paid. Repeatedly.

We have state owned land, you cannot increase your land allotment outside of the state system.
We have association owned equipment. The weapons of our yeomen, and the crossbows of the urban militia belong to and are maintained by the state.
We have kept all land under royal administration despite the increasing burdens of such a method.

ALL that is to set up for a situation like now. We spent a massive amount of opportunity cost to get where we are while the nobles still are individually weak, their power bound to the title which is passed on only by electoral agreement and not by right
The Marian Reforms were a brilliant piece of work.
Distributing all the land in the war spoils to their warriors, who sold the land to the patricians for money was not so brilliant.
 
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A price we already paid. Repeatedly.

We have state owned land, you cannot increase your land allotment outside of the state system.
We have association owned equipment. The weapons of our yeomen, and the crossbows of the urban militia belong to and are maintained by the state.
We have kept all land under royal administration despite the increasing burdens of such a method.

ALL that is to set up for a situation like now. The Marian Reforms were a brilliant piece of work.
Distributing all the land in the war spoils to their warriors, who sold the land to the patricians for money was not so brilliant.

Maaybe you are right, sure. I will wait for AN's answer (and morning because lol what is rational thought) before making up my mind.
 
[X] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
Better to give the urban poor more power and opportunity for advancement than to give the patricians a tighter hold on our collective genitals.

[X] [PiA] Harmurri (Something trade related maybe [Not Center of Trade related])
Expect we'll need the extra income pretty soon :/

[X] [PiA] Western Ymaryn (Possibly Pioneering Spirit)
Maintain cultural continuity with our daughter country, maybe help deal with (over)expansion?
 
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Stooooop no no no sunk cost fallacy is not helpful! Make choices based only and solely on what the present condition is and where we want to move to. Cut away all attachment to what we have already spent or lost.
To tell the truth, if we go on emotional responses, I would just as eagerly kill the Blackbird Institution in vengeance of the stupidity they inspired as save them to make the cost "worth it". So for me at least, I'd say that the biases "cancel out". :p
 
? Is that true? That seems cumbersome at best. If that were true, why not just take away the weapons of anyone who decided to run off to war unauthorized?

Not sure if it's true but if it is then I imagine the answer is something along the lines of "that's what the Civil War option was."
 
[X] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [PiA] Harmurri (Something trade related maybe [Not Center of Trade related])
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)

Voting for Harmurri over Freehills only because I think the combination of getting a social value from a civ all about separation of powers and taking reforms to increase the powers of a single class would be foolish.
 
? Is that true? That seems cumbersome at best. If that were true, why not just take away the weapons of anyone who decided to run off to war unauthorized?
Remember poor connectivity? The local representatives of the state are looking around whistling and then wringing their hands when oh no due to communications delays some new place got conquered and their younger brother happens to be just the right person to help manage it.

The difference between Urban Poor militia and Yeoman militia is that the Urban Poor usually have their weapons stored in state armories and issued only when mobilized or training, whereas the Yeomen have their weapons with them all the time, because the rural estates are too spread out for them to gather together more than once a week.
Its a simple population density issue
 
[X] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
Better to give the urban poor more power and opportunity for advancement than to give the patricians a tighter hold on our collective genitals.

[X] [PiA] Harmurri (Something trade related maybe [Not Center of Trade related])
Expect we'll need the extra income pretty soon :/

[X] [PiA] Western Ymaryn (Possibly Pioneering Spirit)
Maintain cultural continuity with our daughter country, maybe help deal with (over)expansion?

[X] [GA] Administrative innovation (-8 Wealth)
Relieve strain of our current empire size and possibly reduce subordinate woes, and make sure Gilded Age ends.

[X] [GA] Financial innovation (-8 Wealth)
Push off the return of the currency crisis, help with trade, and make sure the Gilded Age ends.

Spending that much Wealth right now brings us to Low Wealth, which costs stability thanks to Guild Mercantile.
 
32 votes for patrician versus 27 votes for Marian reform.

We need like five votes, and someone to switch votes, folk.
 
That is kinda important.

Guys - we are currently at 13 wealth. Next turn, we will have -1 income because our Gilded Age will be over. IF we spend 8 wealth now, that puts us at 5[-1]. And while we have some options to grant Wealth, a lot of them take Econ, which we don't exactly have much to spare of...
 
That is kinda important.

Guys - we are currently at 13 wealth. Next turn, we will have -1 income because our Gilded Age will be over. IF we spend 8 wealth now, that puts us at 5[-1]. And while we have some options to grant Wealth, a lot of them take Econ, which we don't exactly have much to spare of...
Hmm, good point. And if we start the "recruit Urban Poor into army" chain, we'll likely have to pay either Econ or Wealth for that, so maybe better if we don't spend any Wealth right now. Land Reform is currently winning, but I suppose administrative innovation is close enough, so I'll remove my vote for that one.
 
Hmm, good point. And if we start the "recruit Urban Poor into army" chain, we'll likely have to pay either Econ or Wealth for that, so maybe better if we don't spend any Wealth right now. Land Reform is currently winning, but I suppose administrative innovation is close enough, so I'll remove my vote for that one.

Land reform? I don't think we're doing that. We're reforming how we work with our subordinate, though.
 
Latest vote tally:
Adhoc vote count started by PyroTechno on Oct 6, 2017 at 3:51 PM, finished with 435 posts and 76 votes.
 
[X] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [PiA] Harmurri (Something trade related maybe [Not Center of Trade related])
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
 
Better to give the urban poor more power and opportunity for advancement than to give the patricians a tighter hold on our collective genitals.
You know, people keep saying this, but I wouldn't be surprised if both options were designed to give the patricians more power. I mean, in the update the guy literally argues that:
but especially with the bread dole now in place we can better keep them dependent upon the nobility and the crown than we can with the yeomanry
Because do you really think they're going to support a policy that'll decrease their power?
 
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