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Dragon Ball: After the End

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No, she doesn't see us as a person.

But that's fine. I do not fear Dandeer in a straight up fight

More importantly, I don't believe it will come to a fight. The fact is that her son is strong.

And he's a good person.

And a good person helps people when they can.

That means that unless she has a way of physically stopping him after he's already learned how to use his ki because of the attack...

Well he's going to go help people. Because that is what a good person... a good son will do.

It's less a view of us vs her

more that she has raised her child to be a good person, and unless she allows him to be trained, he is going to do with good people do.

Help people, even if it means putting their life on the line, and if we are not involved then there is no garuntee that we can arrive in time to pull his ass out of the fire.

She has to make a decision, one that will shape how Jaron looks at her forever.

And if things go completely badly...


Then Dandeer attacks us in a rage. And someone as fractured as she is will forget to hide her ki and her magic.

And Jaron can sense those.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
You did. Honestly, I mentioned it because if you fucked up and the option failed, the backlash would have been legendary had I not mentioned the possibility. But you're Kakara Goku, you have Exceptional Communication and a host of traits chiming in on most Communication checks, and you can make convincing, "safety," arguments in your sleep with this degree of threat. You aced the checks easily, and with so little drama I felt it served no productive purpose on-screen.
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Even with Dandeer? Because a little idea on how that went down would be useful for this vote.
 
Quest said:
Okay guys, where is this coming from? I don't recall any indication of this. Hell, at one point she even considered us her ally. See the Faith council.
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*shrugs* no idea, some one else mentioned.

But I really don't care one way or the other.

Because I cannot stress it enough that doing this without communicating with Dandeer puts the entire conspiracy at risk

And more importantly, Jaron has shown himself to be a hero already.

So when it comes down to it, I am more afraid of Dandeer saying no and Jaffur going off on his own and getting killed by the aliens than I am of Dandeer herself.

The only way we can handle this without putting everything at risk is to talk to her, no matter how much I hate the bitch.
 
If we ask her with Jaron present there is a good chance that she will blow the secrets for us.

I really wonder how much Jaron knows. His mom is trying to run an entire clan even if she is doing it badly. Could we ask her in front of a crowd of Vegetans with Jaron present?
 
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Lunaryon said:
Because I cannot stress it enough that doing this without communicating with Dandeer puts the entire conspiracy at risk
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This I agree with. I think we should go with peaceful intentions, but then have a back-up plan just in case we she says no.

The major thing with plans like bringing this up in front of a Vegetan crowd, or similar is that it's blatantly antagonistic and both her and our dad can see that, which will bring problems in the future. This kind of thing brings suspicions on us and risks the conspiracy.

Further more, they also assume that she'll be rational and agree to our demands, when she has been anything but. She's much more likely to double-down and bring Jaron even tighter. She can also tattle to our dad, which would again draw attention to our activities that we don't want. Her calling our bluffs leads to the same problems.

@PoptartProdigy does our dad know we're training Jaron? He should know we're training our friends in general, since my letter omake was canon but does he realize Jaron is included in that?
 
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Quest said:
This I agree with. I think we should go with peaceful intentions, but then have a back-up plan just in case we she says no.

The major thing with plans like bringing this up in front of a Vegetan crowd, or similar is that it's blatantly antagonistic and both her and our dad can see that, which will bring problems in the future. This kind of thing brings suspicions on us and risks the conspiracy.

Further more, they also assume that she'll be rational and agree to our demands, when she has been anything but. She's much more likely to double-down and bring Jaron even tighter. She can also tattle to our dad, which would again draw attention to our activities that we don't want. Her calling our bluffs leads to the same problems.

@PoptartProdigy does our dad know we're training Jaron? He should know we're training our friends in general, since my letter omake was canon but does he realize Jaron is included in that?
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He does. He has expressed that training Jaron is simple sense; the boy has enough power to blow up the planet by accident despite the Seal, he needs to know how to control it.

Training him for superpowered combat? That you hadn't run past anybody.
 
Quest said:
This I agree with. I think we should go with peaceful intentions, but then have a back-up plan just in case we she says no.

The major thing with plans like bringing this up in front of a Vegetan crowd, or similar is that it's blatantly antagonistic and both her and our dad can see that, which will bring problems in the future. This kind of thing brings suspicions on us and risks the conspiracy.

Further more, they also assume that she'll be rational and agree to our demands, when she has been anything but. She's much more likely to double-down and bring Jaron even tighter. She can also tattle to our dad, which would again draw attention to our activities that we don't want. Her calling our bluffs leads to the same problems.

@PoptartProdigy does our dad know we're training Jaron? He should know we're training our friends in general, since my letter omake was canon but does he realize Jaron is included in that?
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Honestly, my biggest back up plan is 3-fold

Flaring power level
Instant Transmission
and sheer physicality

Flaring our PL should bring Maya running and Dad ITing if she attacks

We can IT out of there

Or we can just physically book it

The fun thing is that she's not going to want to do any thing while Jaron is there because she doesn't want him to know about any of this. That's why we need to talk to her.

And if she does loose it and attack us...

It might sound cruel, but I would bet my life on Jaron trying to protect us. Regardless of how bad things get.

And if she has some kind of mental shut down code installed...

Well that's just proof that she doesn't have what it takes to take care of the Scion, and that means that the Scion should go to someone who can take care of him and will not abuse the power. Like Grandma for instance.

Which just puts Jaron in the hands of the Conspiracy
 
PoptartProdigy said:
"Oh, Kakara," she says, "I'm an adult. I'm the Lady Vegeta. Just because I'm that and you're a child, you need to listen to me. I know better, and you do not. I am forty-two years old, and you are nine. I don't know what your parents have been teaching you, if you don't know this-"
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PoptartProdigy said:
Lady Vegeta is not the kind of person to take criticism from a child with any level of restraint or equanimity, nor to assign a child even the capacity to shoulder responsibility or blame save in the context of their parents. Children are to be seen and obedient, not heard and questioning, and she does not recognize Kakara's capacity to be right in a contradictory context to her. It simply does not compute. And so she interprets the write-in, which takes a very equal-to-equal tone and questions the sense of the very action of asking the question Lady Vegeta asked, as Kakara acting with appalling and unpardonable rudeness. And given that children are incapable of holding responsibility, it must be the direct fault of their parents. And of course, Kakara is a mere child and thus incapable of contradicting adults once put in her place, so may be freely told this without fear of the consequences.
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Lunaryon said:
No, she doesn't see us as a person.
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[X] *Take a long, deep breath* You hate Dandeer, Dandeer hates you. Surprisingly (not) You know that she hates you and she knows that you hate her. But her son wants to learn how to fight. Not her first born son, but her second son. And as much as you want to make that decision... you really can't not without putting everything that you have been working towards in danger. Which means that you are being put in a terrible, horrible position. You need to talk to Dandeer about this. Both in the Masque and out of it. You hate this idea, but this is the best way to handle things because she does not handle even the image of things not being run by her. And the worst part, if we refuse to do this... Jaron will go off and do this on his own. Dandeer has to understand that... Right? He is doing this because he wants to be a good son. So either she has to convince him not to do this... or she has to let him do this. The other option is to reveal that she knows about Ki and Magic, because Jaron is figuring it out on his own, and if he decides that he is going to do this... then he is going to do this unless she actually stops him.
 
I think we should go talk to Dandeer about training Jaron, but not for the reasons discussed so far.
Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about her attacking us. If we talk with her Masqued, Jaron will see it and she can't afford to reveal her powerlevel to him, and if we talk while saiyan, she can't attack us without saiyan witnesses, most of which already hate her, seeing it.
No, the real issue is that if we train him in secret, Berra might find out. And with our god awful intrigue/deceit he will find out. He ALWAYS finds out. Then he might look closer into our actions, and find out about the Conspiracy. (If he hasn't already, remember, ALWAYS)
I'd rather take our chances with Dandeer.
 
Mikeline said:
I think we should go talk to Dandeer about training Jaron, but not for the reasons discussed so far.
Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about her attacking us. If we talk with her Masqued, Jaron will see it and she can't afford to reveal her powerlevel to him, and if we talk while saiyan, she can't attack us without saiyan witnesses, most of which already hate her, seeing it.
No, the real issue is that if we train him in secret, Berra might find out. And with our god awful intrigue/deceit he will find out. He ALWAYS finds out. Then he might look closer into our actions, and find out about the Conspiracy. (If he hasn't already, remember, ALWAYS)
I'd rather take our chances with Dandeer.
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Exactly!

Well okay, not really, but I never really worried about Berra because of how strong Jaron is... but it is a good point non-the-less
 
I think that we should approach Dandeer under the "We both care about your son. I want him to be safe with the Aliens coming" message.

I mean, frankly, I would very much like to try to get on slightly less antagonistic terms with her.
 
[returns, unable to sleep dammit]

There's one thing I'd actually REALLY like to see out of any conversation with Dandeer.

How did she expect the whole 'sealing Jaffur' thing to work, as a practical matter, over the years? What's her endgame?

...

I mean seriously, what did she expect to happen eventually? Dandeer has made it clear that she never wanted 'Jaron' to start learning ki powers. The Seers haven't gone and appointed her daughter as the new Scion (I gather she hasn't been Sealed). Who's going to be the next Vegetan Scion?


The Vegetans aren't going to tolerate having no royals forever. They're tolerating it now because Jaffur/Jaron is a boy legally under the care of his mother, but what happens when he becomes an adult? Was Dandeer planning to keep him entirely ignorant forever? What will she tell the Vegetans? And who's going to be responsible for running their clan, a generation or two down the line? Was she hoping to arrange matters so that Jaron's child can be brought up as a saiyan, given that this will mean that Jaron's child will have to be raised in isolation from their father? Was the plan to back Berra as the king of all saiyans and allow the Vegetan line of royalty to just... lose its power and fade into obscurity?

Again, I don't understand what's her endgame is.

Does she actually have a plan for any of this? Does she have an answer to the question "who's going to be leading the Vegetans ten or twenty years from now?" Because if not, she's painted herself pretty firmly into a corner here.

While I can't PROVE this is the case, and I'm not sure I believe it... I can easily imagine a hypothetical Dandeer who's feeling very, very isolated right now. She Sealed her husband to stop his abuse. She Sealed her son because she's convinced he's some kind of danger, and/or because she just wants her beautiful dream of a happy loving family and doesn't care who she brainwashes to get it... But now it's all falling apart. Because the dream-life she's magicked up for herself can't withstand the pressures of the outside world.

...

Also, two slight complications with any plan involving Jaron being able to detect his mother's power level spiking.

One, I'm not sure Jaron has any ability to sense ki. Just because Jaffur can funnel power to him, doesn't mean Jaffur can funnel skill to him. Ki sense isn't automatic; it has to be cultivated. Note that Maya wouldn't have any ability to do that if we hadn't taught her.

Two, Dandeer isn't actually stupid. She knows she can't possibly match us for power; even in our Masqued state we outgun her (probably) by something like a hundred to one. It's very likely that she won't even try to power up in response to anything we do.
 
Quest said:
The major thing with plans like bringing this up in front of a Vegetan crowd, or similar is that it's blatantly antagonistic and both her and our dad can see that, which will bring problems in the future. This kind of thing brings suspicions on us and risks the conspiracy.
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The reason it is antagonist is because she is antagonist. There is nothing unreasonable about the request.
 
Simon_Jester said:
[returns, unable to sleep dammit]

There's one thing I'd actually REALLY like to see out of any conversation with Dandeer.

How did she expect the whole 'sealing Jaffur' thing to work, as a practical matter, over the years? What's her endgame?

...

I mean seriously, what did she expect to happen eventually? Dandeer has made it clear that she never wanted 'Jaron' to start learning ki powers. The Seers haven't gone and appointed her daughter as the new Scion (I gather she hasn't been Sealed). Who's going to be the next Vegetan Scion?


The Vegetans aren't going to tolerate having no royals forever. They're tolerating it now because Jaffur/Jaron is a boy legally under the care of his mother, but what happens when he becomes an adult? Was Dandeer planning to keep him entirely ignorant forever? What will she tell the Vegetans? And who's going to be responsible for running their clan, a generation or two down the line? Was she hoping to arrange matters so that Jaron's child can be brought up as a saiyan, given that this will mean that Jaron's child will have to be raised in isolation from their father? Was the plan to back Berra as the king of all saiyans and allow the Vegetan line of royalty to just... lose its power and fade into obscurity?

Again, I don't understand what's her endgame is.

Does she actually have a plan for any of this? Does she have an answer to the question "who's going to be leading the Vegetans ten or twenty years from now?" Because if not, she's painted herself pretty firmly into a corner here.

While I can't PROVE this is the case, and I'm not sure I believe it... I can easily imagine a hypothetical Dandeer who's feeling very, very isolated right now. She Sealed her husband to stop his abuse. She Sealed her son because she's convinced he's some kind of danger, and/or because she just wants her beautiful dream of a happy loving family and doesn't care who she brainwashes to get it... But now it's all falling apart. Because the dream-life she's magicked up for herself can't withstand the pressures of the outside world.

...

Also, two slight complications with any plan involving Jaron being able to detect his mother's power level spiking.

One, I'm not sure Jaron has any ability to sense ki. Just because Jaffur can funnel power to him, doesn't mean Jaffur can funnel skill to him. Ki sense isn't automatic; it has to be cultivated. Note that Maya wouldn't have any ability to do that if we hadn't taught her.

Two, Dandeer isn't actually stupid. She knows she can't possibly match us for power; even in our Masqued state we outgun her (probably) by something like a hundred to one. It's very likely that she won't even try to power up in response to anything we do.
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Even in your maximum publicly displayed power as Karen you all outgun her by a factor of twenty.
 
Heh. One wonders if we would get intimidation bonuses for wearing royal armor and the full-Saiyan masque when interacting with her.
 
Lailoken said:
Heh. One wonders if we would get intimidation bonuses for wearing royal armor and the full-Saiyan masque when interacting with her.
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If we ask her in front of a crowd of Vegetans I suggest that we be as reasonable and friendly as possible. The request is reasonable. Let her be antagonist. We will be the mature one talking to a child.
 
fictionfan said:
The reason it is antagonist is because she is antagonist. There is nothing unreasonable about the request.
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She is an antagonist for us, the questors. Publicly, we act as if we are fine with the current status quo or at least putting up with it. Which is why dad trusts us. That action is unreasonable because we're being blatantly antagonistic to our father's ally, in order to force her to do something that our father hasn't agreed is a good idea. Do you really think that if we do this, our dad will be happy with us?

Besides, if we do this, we push her into a corner and you never push an unpredictable enemy into the corner like that, especially in the delicate situation that we are in.

Reply to your previous post, since I can't quote that:

It's not that she thinks we're not a person, it's that we were nine years old and she knows better. Which in any normal situation would be true.

But that was 4 years ago. Even putting aside the fact that we're 12 now, the whole Garenhuldan council kinda blew that whole argument out of the water. I will note that in the aftermath of the whole alien attack, she blamed us for training Jaron, not our father who should be to blame with her previous statement. Whatever her previous position, she's quite clearly revised it.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
You did. Honestly, I mentioned it because if you fucked up and the option failed, the backlash would have been legendary had I not mentioned the possibility. But you're Kakara Goku, you have Exceptional Communication and a host of traits chiming in on most Communication checks, and you can make convincing, "safety," arguments in your sleep with this degree of threat. You aced the checks easily, and with so little drama I felt it served no productive purpose on-screen.
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I don't know, seeing us accomplish such a task would be good for morale purposes.
PoptartProdigy said:
Oh, you haven't spoken with her. Jaron just told you that it was fine.

Kakara is suddenly wondering whether or not he successfully lied to her. :lol
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...Okay, if he did, we should probably apologize to Dandeer. That is legitimately a fuck-up on our part.

Hmm....

[ ] The time has finally come. You need to talk to Dandeer. Fuck.
-[ ] Contact Dad and Grandma to get advice on how to handle Dandeer, and so that if Dandeer manages to do anything, they'll be alerted.
-[ ] Also, double-check that Jaron actually got permission for the training. If he didn't, you'll offer a formal apology to Dandeer, because whatever your feelings for her are, it was a genuine mistake on your part.
-[ ] Talk to Dandeer about what Jaron wants, why he wants said training, and why you think it's a good idea, if only from a self-defence perspective.
--[ ] If Dandeer didn't give permission for him to be trained at all, point out the dangers of him not getting said training, and the time he nearly died during the invasion.
-[ ] And also, talk to Dandeer about what her plan is. How did she expect things to go down after the Sealing? How did she plan on dealing with the Scion issue in the future?
 
Ok we all agree that we should ask Dandeer the question is if we should ask her

[]Ask Dandeer for permission with Jaron present under mask.

Or

[X]Ask Dandeer for permission in front of a crowd of Vegetans. Be as friendly and reasonable as possible and don't lose your cool.

The second puts alot more pressure on her and even if she says no we gain something. The first forces her to come up with an excuse for Jaron to accept.
 
fictionfan said:
Ok we all agree that we should ask Dandeer the question is if we should ask her

[]Ask Dandeer for permission with Jaron present under mask.

Or

[X]Ask Dandeer for permission in front of a crowd of Vegetans. Be as friendly and reasonable as possible and don't lose your cool.

The second puts alot more pressure on her and even if she says no we gain something. The first forces her to come up with an excuse for Jaron to accept.
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Or, you know:

[] Ask Dandeer for permission with Jaron not present, privately.

Because the Vegetan crowd thing is impractical, blatant and liable to cause more problems then it solves.
 
Gore17 said:
Or, you know:

[] Ask Dandeer for permission with Jaron not present, privately.
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I want something to keep her civil. If we ask her privately she is likely to just yell at us and say things like "how dare you" and "you have no right" or just no without explanation.

It would follow her previous pattern. By herself she is just going to stone wall.
 
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