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Paths of Civilization

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maximillian said:
The Romans for example viewed commerce as filthy or distasteful. And so a truly good person would be one who makes wealth without engaging in unworthy practices. Thus rent became the income source of the aristocrats. And since you but collect rents on self managed properties and projects, you have nothing but free time to spend on more worthy persuits such as war, the arts, indulgence or acquiring more rent sources.
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This stemmed from earlier virtues(which we put a boot in early on), where traders were seen as parasitic, because they produced nothing and their cultural values glorified the makers of food and protectors of people.

Funny how a virtue of diligence can be inverted doesn't it?
hylas240 said:
Wait...if we start both the Grand Docks and International Games...will our provinces split their actions between both? If so, we might not finish the International Games by the mid turn (losing us the special bonus).

Unless the provinces actually have 3 main actions?
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It's already been answered but the provinces have an excess action. Two excess if Symphony triggers once. Three excess if it triggers twice(which gives us a shot at starting and finishing both in the same turn). As we have a Heroic Admin, you can assume province actions to take place in the most optimal order.

PrimalShadow said:
A point in favor of poppies: it leaves us with two free policy actions. Now, I can't say I know how those would be used, but I wouldn't be surprised to see trade delegations sent to our neighbors. Maybe to the Lightning Wolves, wherever they are roaming nowdays? Or the Swamp Folks, who we basically haven't met at all?

Wouldn't it be grand to have them come and participate, too?
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Doesn't work like that. Megaproject Support explicitly takes only two actions:
-Advance an ongoing megaproject.
-Generate resources needed for an open megaproject

As no megaproject consumes Diplomacy other than the International Games, which would already have been completed, Megaproject Support will not take Trade Missions.
 
DocMatoi said:
Not to start an argument, but one of them became president of the United States.
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It ALWAYS annoys me when people nonsensically tear down their opponents.

Trump inherited a small fortune, sure. And turned it into a large fortune. And turned that into a successful reality TV career. And turned that into President of the United States.

That's either the track of a gods-blessed luckamancer, or someone with relatively high intelligence.

Underestimating him because of the stupid things he says is foolish. A stupid person can't win that much in that complicated of fields.
 
pblur said:
It ALWAYS annoys me when people nonsensically tear down their opponents.

Trump inherited a small fortune, sure. And turned it into a large fortune. And turned that into a successful reality TV career. And turned that into President of the United States.

That's either the track of a gods-blessed luckamancer, or someone with relatively high intelligence.

Underestimating him because of the stupid things he says is foolish. A stupid person can't win that much in that complicated of fields.
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That's one possible route of Arete gone wrong: Selecting for excellence in the wrong traits. You could see where the chinese imperial exams selected for poetic skill more than for administrative ability. Where merchant republics selected for the ability to build personal wealth and to tear down rivals rather than lead a nation.

That's where checks and balances come in.
Power structures competing with rival power structures tend to avoid excessively stupidity because they'd rapidly lose power share.
 
veekie said:
That's one possible route of Arete gone wrong: Selecting for excellence in the wrong traits. You could see where the chinese imperial exams selected for poetic skill more than for administrative ability. Where merchant republics selected for the ability to build personal wealth and to tear down rivals rather than lead a nation.

That's where checks and balances come in.
Power structures competing with rival power structures tend to avoid excessively stupidity because they'd rapidly lose power share.
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Which is why we need feudalism, it had the most complex and diverse power structure possible, and every inch of it was in competition.
 
[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Grand Docks
 
SpeckofStardust said:
He was voted in, clearly the will of the people which is democracy at it's finest.
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Well, he won against popular will through mechanics that were once concessions given to rich landholders iirc and his most useful tool was a media landscape ravaged by capitalism unrestrained by morals, so that whole RL politics thing is still a good example for why this threads dominant views arent that bad.

pblur said:
Trump inherited a small fortune, sure.
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I think you might want to check your facts, that one is in no way correct.
 
CeBrudras said:
Well, he won against popular will through mechanics that were once concessions given to rich landholders iirc and his most useful tool was a media landscape ravaged by capitalism unrestrained by morals, so that whole RL politics thing is still a good example for why this threads dominant views arent that bad.


I think you might want to check your facts, that one is in no way correct.
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I disagree with basically everything in this post, but people have a point about no politics. PM me if you want to discuss it. ;)
 
Look, there's the big cesspit of CA to take Present Day political debates. Lets keep our politics to the iron age.

maximillian said:
Which is why we need feudalism, it had the most complex and diverse power structure possible, and every inch of it was in competition.
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They selected for the ability to keep land claims in the family and to gain more claims.

This led to a clusterfuck, where who you were fucking and who your grandmother fucked could often be more important than your actual competence!

But in practice it wasn't so clean cut, since the Church and the Merchants had absolutely no difficulty competing with them using alternative influence routes.
 
[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Grand Docks
 
I'm sorry for starting some bullshit - I know lots of people come here to avoid such things. I know I do.
 
veekie said:
Look, there's the big cesspit of CA to take Present Day political debates. Lets keep our politics to the iron age.


They selected for the ability to keep land claims in the family and to gain more claims.

This led to a clusterfuck, where who you were fucking and who your grandmother fucked could often be more important than your actual competence!

But in practice it wasn't so clean cut, since the Church and the Merchants had absolutely no difficulty competing with them using alternative influence routes.
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Precisely, the diverse and fractured power structure allowed for multiple means of social and political advancement. As well as a flourishing of culture and philosophy. It also ensured that no faction got too powerful, as there were simply far too many for any attempt at consolidation.

It also entrenches the idea of separated powers and wide reaching or inherent rights.
 
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[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Grand Docks
 
veekie said:
Look, there's the big cesspit of CA to take Present Day political debates. Lets keep our politics to the iron age.


They selected for the ability to keep land claims in the family and to gain more claims.

This led to a clusterfuck, where who you were fucking and who your grandmother fucked could often be more important than your actual competence!

But in practice it wasn't so clean cut, since the Church and the Merchants had absolutely no difficulty competing with them using alternative influence routes.
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I like it! How do we set up something similar with our guilds?​
 
Also, I haven't voted yet. I don't trust the provinces to not do 2-3x docks and leave Games not completed on the turn we have the bonus. If we get WoG I'm willing to change.

[X][Guild] Plant Poppies
 
[X] [Guild] Plant Poppies

Everything else is pretty much decided already. I guess this really is the end of the Bronze Age, because we really can't hide our iron anymore, especially with the International Games.
 
So... when do we want to start trading in iron? Right now, we stand to make a decent profit... and if iron is out ANYHOW with the Metal Worker refugees and HK, maybe it's time?

@Academia Nut, how would we decide to do that?
 
Concho117 said:

I like it! How do we set up something similar with our guilds?​
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We already did:
-The priests have not much secular power, but they have veto power. Their current role is the arbitrator of disputess and defender of tradition.

-The nobles have the power of diplomacy and integration with every other faction. Their current role is the manager, whose job is to get the right person for the right job. They also have strong ties to the warriors, who are not themselves political, but exercise their politics through the family ties with noble families(and well, like modern politics, a stint in the army is an easy way to build up your cred).

-The clerks have the power of bureaucracy. All traffic runs through them ultimately, and while they lack the power to individually make big changes, they have substantial collective power through selective favoring and disfavoring. Piss them off and watch all your efforts just fail, and clerks are not easily replaced for roles either.

-The guilds have the power of money. They have the advantage of smaller scopes than the other factions, allowing them to concentrate attention more easily, and to bribe other elements into submission, but currently lack the breadth to decisively take over the system.

So in other words, we've set up a mutual economic hostage scenario, where anyone can make anyone else lose, if they are willing to kamikaze themselves. Optimal lies in jolly cooperation.
 
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