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Paths of Civilization

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You know I am feeling a minor fit of insanity coming on.

Someone please stop me from voting for pbluekan's double mega plan, for the sake of delicious delicious data.
 
[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Grand Docks
 
Something to note, if we want to take Terrify next turn, we need to get one Diplo somewhere. So, either other secondary or guild action.
 
No takers?

Okay. Data here I come!

[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Grand Docks
 
Vocalend said:
Especially a largely workaholic society such as the Ymaryn.
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The thing is, I don't want that to change- we can NOT just assume that our society will stay the same past every trait change. How do we know LoA won't just give us a lazier noble caste while everyone else is doing all the hard work?
We have no idea what the actual trait will do, and all we have to go on is the name - which implies Greeks. So we look to the Greeks and what do we see? Well, just look at @Susano s posts
 
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Cathon Grimeye said:
If we take the whole HK, just execute all the royal family and all who can pretend to the throne. Last we saw they were a hereditary monarchy, kill their leaders and the only choices left to the population are either to submit or to fall into anarchy. In the end, hereditary monarchy has a single failure point, once the King's line is dead, everyone who tries to rebel will have no legitimacy at all and will not be able to rally people for a rebellion. Maybe take the heir or other relatives to be wed into our noble families in order to have a legitimate claim on the HK throne.
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Because a lost scions of noble dynasties appearing at the head of a rebellion totally didnt happen often enough to have turned into a straight up boring trope...

Cathon Grimeye said:
just send a Support Subordinate regularly
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Yeah, because we have such a good track record of making sure our vassals share our culture...
For gods sake, we still havent influenced the nomads who joined us on a whim once. Neither have we used the action on the Txolla or Hatvalley.

With multiple such actions you are also arriving at the point where pacifying the area costs as much actions and ressources as building the anti-nomad channel, and the nomads have actually shown themselves to be capable of more than just jobbing to us.
 
DocMatoi said:
The thing is, I don't want that to change- we can NOT just assume that our society will stay the same past every trait change. How do we know LoA won't just give us a lazier noble caste while everyone else is doing all the hard work?
We have no idea what the actual trait will do, and all we have to go on is the name - which implies Greeks. So we look to the Greeks and what do we see? Well, just look at @Susano s posts
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Because that's the opposite of what it's name implies?
 
Carrnage said:
Because that's the opposite of what it's name implies?
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Life of Arete. Life of "fulfilling ones function." All it takes is someone deciding their function is to sit on their keister while everyone else puts in the work.
I really want to lose this trait line guys.
 
Let's just take and fortify the passes- it makes it all but impossible for them to hurt us and doesn't give us a vassal that hates our guts and will require us to spend piles of actions and stats to pacify.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Fun thought, but probably not.

Right now, our most efficient option would be something like
{S} Retraining
followed by
{M} Raise Army
{S} Retraining
on the next turn.

In total, that gets us:
-5 Wealth, +1 Martial, +1 Econ, +6 Culture, +4 Tech
So +7 stats for 2M worth of actions. Not a great bargain. :(
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The funny thing is that's not horrible. With completely optimal choices, we'd expect around +10 from a double main.

The fact that raising an army and retraining them is even CLOSE is amazing.
 
[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Grand Docks

Band wagon has good music during our long, slow ride over our insufficient trails.
 
DocMatoi said:
The thing is, I don't want that to change- we can NOT just assume that our society will stay the same past every trait change. How do we know LoA won't just give us a lazier noble caste while everyone else is doing all the hard work!
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Let me see if I can tackle this one.

In the Greeks excellence for the nobles meant philosophy and contemplation, because as a slave driven society they had social systems that encouraged the higher classes to not do physical labor. Arete thus meant they lazed their asses off navel gazing at the worst end of it.

In the Ymaryn excellence for the nobles means social achievement, clerical skill and business acumen. Because as a society with a semi-technical economy and highly intensive government we have an impetus to work. I would thus expect that Arete means we have nobles who do lots of accounting really damn well.

DocMatoi said:
Life of Arete. Life of "fulfilling ones function." All it takes is someone deciding their function is to sit on their keister while everyone else puts in the work.
I really want to lose this trait line guys.
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*sigh*

Okay.

Honest feelings reading this sorta reaction gets me in the bad feels more and more these days.
 
Taking the former Hathatyn land will deprive the Highlanders of their metals. Taking the passages will secure our western flank. Taking all of their land within 2 km of the main river will deprive them of their manpower.

That leaves two areas: the hills and the flatlands.
 
BungieONI said:
In the Greeks excellence for the nobles meant philosophy and contemplation, because as a slave driven society they had social systems that encouraged the higher classes to not do physical labor. Arete thus meant they lazed their asses off navel gazing at the worst end of it.

In the Ymaryn excellence for the nobles means social achievement, clerical skill and business acumen. Because as a society with a semi-technical economy and highly intensive government we have an impetus to work. I would thus expect that Arete means we have nobles who do lots of accounting really damn well.
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Ok. That makes sense, I'm probably just bitter about how we're not as egalitarian as we used to be anymore. Sorry.
I hope we get an option to make sure the games are open to all contestants
 
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Okay, time for plan Dehereditarize!

[X][Guild] Grand Docks
[X][Main] Plant Poppy
[X][Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation
[X][Secondary] Support Artisans
 
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DocMatoi said:
Ok. That makes sense, I'm probably just bitter about how we're not as egalitarian as we used to be anymore. Sorry.
I hope we get an option to make sure the games are open to all contestants
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What's basically happening is that as we shift away from the subsistence day to day survival of nomads to the technical economy loss of egalitarian values was inevitable. We are basically seeing a transitory period right now with a drop in those values, which will only start to work itself out back towards egalitarian values once we hit the post industrial revolution.

Hypothetically, if we stayed the course with arete line, what I could see us ending up in the post modern era is a highly skill based society. Really the only example I have to draw from is the Life Paths of the Eldar.

Hmmm... Basically if we stay the course and put our all into technical advances we should eventually reach a point where the only things left for our people to really devote themselves too like the arete line demands will be the skilled labors. Basically highly technocratic and... hmm... I want to say Japanese honor based as that is closest to the image in my head.
 
[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Grand Docks

I read about 15ish pages after the update, then saw after skipping to this page to vote that the current bandwagon switched to Grand Docks? o_O

Whatever, I wanted to do the Grand Docks too anyways :p
 
BungieONI said:
What's basically happening is that as we shift away from the subsistence day to day survival of nomads to the technical economy loss of egalitarian values was inevitable. We are basically seeing a transitory period right now with a drop in those values, which will only start to work itself out back towards egalitarian values once we hit the post industrial revolution.

Hypothetically, if we stayed the course with arete line, what I could see us ending up in the post modern era is a highly skill based society. Really the only example I have to draw from is the Life Paths of the Eldar.

Hmmm... Basically if we stay the course and put our all into technical advances we should eventually reach a point where the only things left for our people to really devote themselves too like the arete line demands will be the skilled labors. Basically highly technocratic and... hmm... I want to say Japanese honor based as that is closest to the image in my head.
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This sounds excellent to me
 
Mortis said:
This sounds excellent to me
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Yeah it's basically a case that you... sorta saturate things.

You raise the technical level and social level and the quality of life level so much that the scale flips back around to being essentially egalitarian. This is because in part that people will acknowledge that there are many Paths to Excellence, E: As well as being accepting of many definitions of excellence.

I'll note that Arete is not the end of the road and we can evolve it beyond this. Into what I have no idea, but something more is certainly possible.
 
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Current Tally:
Adhoc vote count started by gutza1 on Aug 1, 2017 at 8:09 AM, finished with 92318 posts and 95 votes.
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Cerillian said:
Personally, if I were to get into a scheme to evaluate our options, I'd start from the opposite end, and attempt to estimate the rough value of each action, as opposed to trying to estimate the rough cost of each stat. The only vaguely possible way I can see this, is to try to convert every stat into some sort of fungible value. Unfortunately, the situation is not set up to make that particularly easy.
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That's what the Action Efficiency section of the stat cost post does already.

I'm not willing to include innovation rolls, because any weight I put on them would be completely subjective.
 
pblur said:
That's what the Action Efficiency section of the stat cost post does already.

I'm not willing to include innovation rolls, because any weight I put on them would be completely subjective.
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Sup! How you been reading this glorious thread?

Thoughts on the last update?
 
[X] [Mega] Randomly upgrade an Honour Code Value
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Plant Poppies
 
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