- Location
- Australia
look even with the mega project support policy I know we can still beat them. But this assumption that even if we do less than nothing to prepare for the war that'll still be quick and bloodless is pissing me off.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
look even with the mega project support policy I know we can still beat them. But this assumption that even if we do less than nothing to prepare for the war that'll still be quick and bloodless is pissing me off.
It's more that we don't really need to raise stats in general at the moment. Between refunds and pop explosion we're generally fine with the stat gains of an action as a byproduct rather than end goals. So an action dedicated to that as opposed to a megaproject doesn't feel that amazing.
It'll buy them time, sure. Gives us all the more reason to come up with siege tech like sapping.
- Location
- his hidden lair
My point exactly.
- Location
- his hidden lair
Did I say less than nothing? My plan is to switch back to offense, hurling the Red Banner and 24 martial at them. That by all rights should be twice their red cap on martial, closer to thrice- all of whom have superior equipment, doctrine, and presumably martial cultural values.
My point isn't that this war will be trivial, or even that it will be relatively bloodless, it's that we can afford to play for keeps- to over turn every little anthill and string up every single HK noble who doesn't bend the knee. Why go for half measures when we have such a great opportunity to exterminate the pests root and all?
On further consideration. I think I prefer starting the Docks next turn instead. @bluefur87 has raised a good point about things coming in odd numbers, which makes me less confident in getting a legacy here.
Furthermore, if we take the docks this turn, we won't finish it until next turn, whereas taking it next turn is likely to finish it next turn (1 King + 3 Province + (?) 1 Symphony) anyway, possibly saving us a main action from Symphony.
Also. I want to burn our EE now rather than in the future, since that possibly means an extra true city sooner.
[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Plant Poppies
Furthermore, if we take the docks this turn, we won't finish it until next turn, whereas taking it next turn is likely to finish it next turn (1 King + 3 Province + (?) 1 Symphony) anyway, possibly saving us a main action from Symphony.
Also. I want to burn our EE now rather than in the future, since that possibly means an extra true city sooner.
[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Plant Poppies
We are already prepared. Right now we can throw sixteen best martial in the world backed by the best military leader in world, all veterans of the greatest war and greatest battles ever, without even switching policies. Building walls gives us no advantage whatsoever. I agree that walls and watchtowers are good in general, and that we should sit on the defense policy later, but right now they won't give us more edge - not that we need it, since we're already have a greatsword to their knife.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
I see people arguing that attacking into a heavily mountainous nation will be easy. 
Legion0047
Retired Shadowrunner.
- Location
- Austria
- Pronouns
- God Emperor
[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Grand Docks
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Grand Docks
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm not sure what to think about the Guild/Docks idea. I'll probably go for it. It's useful. I'll definitely go for it if the Double mega plan pulls through so that we can whack the HK upside the head.
I hadn't figured Gulvalley and Txolla-chan into it but that is actually a reasonable idea that they'd attack, seeing as they both touch borders.
It seems reasonable that if we are winning enough to vassalize, we will have the option for demanding territory.
Now leaving them independent after this does have a few problems. They could sell iron to other people. However, I rate this as a low priority concern since iron is firmly out of the bag in my estimation and they are not stupid so they will be unwilling to give up that advantage, especially because they are desperate. The only feasible way I could see something like that happening is they spawn a Diplo hero and convince the Khemetri to attack us, by basically selling themselves and their iron, at which point we are still only really facing one enemy with the two having fused. I also don't see the Khem going for it because of their pride and the overtures of friendship we are aiming for in the International Games. (Really if the Khem are going to come for us again I expect them to say it to our faces)
They could send attacks against us. I think this is nullified because by taking their west passes and thus the tin mines there which are their only source of tin besides us, we massively reduce their war ability. As such they could send war actions at us, but they would not be the strategically annoying ones they did last time around as they cannot cutoff the most likely front with either the Khemetri or the Trelli or any other far southern enemy. E: So they would still need to be dealt with, but we could leave it to a province to handle which I think we can manage.
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- Location
- Australia
And your falling into the same thinking we always do. We have to break the enemy, we have to send in 4 and a half main war missions at them. We have to make them bleed until they'll never think to ever fight us again. Does this not sound like a bloodbath?
If we have defences built up then the strategy is just sit in our land send 1 main war mission a turn in with the mercenaries and just keep doing that till they sign whatever we want for peace. they can hardly attack us back and win If we have defences built up.
Hyacinthium
Writing about sad cannibals as we speak.
- Location
- Bedroom
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm caught up.
[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Grand Docks
I'm so ecstatic rn man.
[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Grand Docks
I'm so ecstatic rn man.
Sure wasn't very hard first two times around. And we didn't even had Red Banner there.I see people arguing that attacking into a heavily mountainous nation will be easy.
- Location
- Australia
what are you talking about we've just always beaten them in the field and started laying siege to the edges when we make them sign peace. We don't know how well defended the capital is.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Last 2 wars we were beating back offensives from them, effectively ending their armies out in the open, this war wont be like that at all.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The advantage of that available action. It's just sitting there. Sure it could be used by a province for some generic action, or we use it to get a head start on something we have needed/wanted for quite some time. Starting a turn early and thus finishing a turn early rather than waiting an extra full turn cycle to even get started is certainly an advantage. I suppose that would go for all of the guild actions, but none of them will benefit from the head start like a megaproject will.
*if im beginning to become a little incoherent, it's because bedtime is now.
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Hmm, I'll take some time to do the analysis before voting. It's not like people can post that quickly anyway.
*Looks at thread*
Mein Gott
Lets see now:
Diplomacy 16 [+1] -> 10 [+1]
-Integrate Stallions -6
Normal.
Economy 12 [-2+12] {11} -> 14 [-2+14]
-Yenyna -1
-The Games -2
-Stallions +5
Normal
Sustainable Forests 10/11 -> 12/14
-Integrate Stallions +2/+3
Got wood?
Econ Expansion 10 [+2-12] -> 18 [+2-14]
-Integrate Stallions +5
-The Games +2
-Yenyna +1
This is going to burn away in a blaze of overflow. I'm okay with it!
Martial 3 (+7) {7} -> 20 {25}
-Veterancy +7
-Integrate Stallions +10
Holy shit, that is a fuckload of non-red martial. Heck of a shock when the Khemetri come over for the Games. They killed nearly the entire core military population and less than half a generation later it's back to full.
AND our Economy will be maxed out again
Wealth 3 [+5-2] -> 2 [+6-2]
-Yenyna -1
New Lead! Witness the Pilgrimage Gift
Culture 8 -> 15 (+1)
-Yenyna -1
-The Games -4
-Integrate Stallions +4
-The Games(Reformers) +8
Holy shit, Reformers refunded the whole Mysticism + Culture cost of The Games into one big stack of Culture
If we finish the International Games by the mid-turn via megaproject support, we'd get:
-Mysticism 16 (+6) [+2] -> 7 (+6) [+2] -> 15 (+6)
-Diplomacy 10 [+1] -> 1 [+1] -> 2
-Culture 15 (+1) -> 6 (+1) -> 7 (+27)
Just imagine maxing out Tech from overflowing Culture.
Mysticism 13 (+1) [+1] -> 16 (+6) [+2]
-Yenyna -1
-The Games -4
-Integrate Stallions +8
Then the Library refunded the Games again.
Current pending refunds:
-Blackbirds +1
-Yenyna +1
-The Games +4
Tech 4 -> 6
-Integrate Stallions +2
Slowly dripping up.
Prestige 64 -> 65
-The Games +1
Let the games begin!
Stability 2 (hopeful) -> 1 (optimistic)
-Kicked Megaproject -1
Totally worth it.
Centralization 3 -> 3
-Stallion Tribes -1
-Stallion Tribe Trails +1
Confused me for a bit, but once I looked up our trails level it lines up. If they already have good road networks, the Cent costs equalize out.
But we don't get progress towards the next discount!
Trade Goods:
-Fine Textiles - Odd that the Khemetri don't seem to have a presence despite cotton featuring. I guess they import that.
-Slaves - Likewise odd that you don't see the Khemetri here. Also is it just me or did the Saffron Islands just vanish at some point?
-Pilgrimage - Major Competition -> Leading. We're in the clear lead now. Kicking everyone's ass is a powerful way to show your gods are stronger! Interestingly Khemetri are also exporting Pilgrimage, but are too far to hit us. Must be weird for the Trelli to be between both.
Kind of funny to think about Guild Mercantile bonus applying to Pilgrimage income. Pilgrimage transport operators? Tacky souvenier salesmen? An oddly greasy C.M.O.T. Dwybllr?
Subordinates:
The alarm about Gulvalley isn't reflected. They're doing fine statwise.
Tech:
So combined with Census and Arsenal we have a safe Martial of 5 above normal.
This is a lot of stabby. It also churns a shitload of culture from true cities, but we're already getting that.
It's hilarious when combined with Libraries for the Mysticism overflow.
No result yet except...
Historically, there is always That Guy.
And whoever dealt with That Guy each generation was always annoyed enough to write it into the histories.
And I see our First Football riot was quelled because our Admin hero made sure that the judges are 120kg Ex Marines, who just spanked everyone and put in fouling rules.
[] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
To be the very best, like no one ever was.
Arete was the original goal of taking Honor of Elites to begin with.
It is not only for the best to seek perfection, it is not only for warriors to pursue supremacy, but all should live their lives in excellence.
Puts a lot of pressure on our elite castes to perform
[] [Mega] Randomly upgrade an Honour Code Value
Well this is likely another step in Swords and Ploughshares or Honorable Death, since the narrative doesn't fit Lord's Loyalty here.
[] [Mega] Free Upgrade of Holy Sea to a temple
This would take all of 0.75 turns under infrastructure passives, if it's a priority. Does help with the religious friction however.
[] [Mega] Free Main Proclaim Glory
...well, if you REALLY wanted a Golden Age right the hell now...
Raise Army and Retraining got boosted.
@Academia Nut need to update the additional damage label when you get around to putting it into the OP. Either Life of Arete or Best of the Best.
Before;
-Raise Army
--S: Econ -1, Wealth -1, Martial +2
--M: Wealth -1, Martial +2, Culture +1
--2M: Culture +1
-Retraining
--S: Martial -1, Econ Expansion -1, Econ/Culture/Tech +1,
--M: Martial -1, Econ Expansion -1, Econ/Culture/Tech +1,
Stat efficiency is still the same, but action efficiency for when we need an emergency resupply or emergency Martial drop against redness during the mid turn are greatly boosted
Defense levels:
-Significant: 6/40 -> 14/45
-Massive 2/40 -> 4/45
-Watchtowers 30% -> 35%
Stallion Tribes have added a fair chunk of significant walls, but the road is long. Their 100% towers helped when merged in at least
Distribute Land now only adds Progress on Mains. Much better!
Road levels have gone from 2/3; 5/14 -> 2/3; 7/16
Stallions are apparently quite well roaded.
Guild actions:
-Art Patronage
-Build Docks
-Build Glassworks
-Expand Snail Cultivation
-Expand Vineyards
-More Boats
-Plant Hemp
-Plant Poppies
-Support Artisans
-Grand Docks
Oddly enough, Mills and Theaters aren't included. I suppose they only count tangible, tradable goods. Distinctively Second Kind work.
We got a metalworking innovation buried in Build Mills, but hopefully we can still do that on the mid turn, we don't have the Wealth to spare.
I notice this is the first CA flagged Megaproject. Only a cosmopolitan culture can even CONSIDER it.
Expensive as hell, but we can afford it. And refund the whole cost a turn later
Going by the 24 Econ cost, this should be counted as a True Wonder like Greater Sacred Forest.
Now to see what to vote once I catch up.
*Looks at thread*
Mein Gott
Lets see now:
Diplomacy 16 [+1] -> 10 [+1]
-Integrate Stallions -6
Normal.
Economy 12 [-2+12] {11} -> 14 [-2+14]
-Yenyna -1
-The Games -2
-Stallions +5
Normal
Sustainable Forests 10/11 -> 12/14
-Integrate Stallions +2/+3
Got wood?
Econ Expansion 10 [+2-12] -> 18 [+2-14]
-Integrate Stallions +5
-The Games +2
-Yenyna +1
This is going to burn away in a blaze of overflow. I'm okay with it!
Martial 3 (+7) {7} -> 20 {25}
-Veterancy +7
-Integrate Stallions +10
Holy shit, that is a fuckload of non-red martial. Heck of a shock when the Khemetri come over for the Games. They killed nearly the entire core military population and less than half a generation later it's back to full.
AND our Economy will be maxed out again
Wealth 3 [+5-2] -> 2 [+6-2]
-Yenyna -1
New Lead! Witness the Pilgrimage Gift
Culture 8 -> 15 (+1)
-Yenyna -1
-The Games -4
-Integrate Stallions +4
-The Games(Reformers) +8
Holy shit, Reformers refunded the whole Mysticism + Culture cost of The Games into one big stack of Culture
If we finish the International Games by the mid-turn via megaproject support, we'd get:
-Mysticism 16 (+6) [+2] -> 7 (+6) [+2] -> 15 (+6)
-Diplomacy 10 [+1] -> 1 [+1] -> 2
-Culture 15 (+1) -> 6 (+1) -> 7 (+27)
Just imagine maxing out Tech from overflowing Culture.
Mysticism 13 (+1) [+1] -> 16 (+6) [+2]
-Yenyna -1
-The Games -4
-Integrate Stallions +8
Then the Library refunded the Games again.
Current pending refunds:
-Blackbirds +1
-Yenyna +1
-The Games +4
Tech 4 -> 6
-Integrate Stallions +2
Slowly dripping up.
Prestige 64 -> 65
-The Games +1
Let the games begin!
Stability 2 (hopeful) -> 1 (optimistic)
-Kicked Megaproject -1
Totally worth it.
Centralization 3 -> 3
-Stallion Tribes -1
-Stallion Tribe Trails +1
Confused me for a bit, but once I looked up our trails level it lines up. If they already have good road networks, the Cent costs equalize out.
But we don't get progress towards the next discount!
My god it's accelerating.
Trade Goods:
-Fine Textiles - Odd that the Khemetri don't seem to have a presence despite cotton featuring. I guess they import that.
-Slaves - Likewise odd that you don't see the Khemetri here. Also is it just me or did the Saffron Islands just vanish at some point?
-Pilgrimage - Major Competition -> Leading. We're in the clear lead now. Kicking everyone's ass is a powerful way to show your gods are stronger! Interestingly Khemetri are also exporting Pilgrimage, but are too far to hit us. Must be weird for the Trelli to be between both.
Kind of funny to think about Guild Mercantile bonus applying to Pilgrimage income. Pilgrimage transport operators? Tacky souvenier salesmen? An oddly greasy C.M.O.T. Dwybllr?
Subordinates:
The alarm about Gulvalley isn't reflected. They're doing fine statwise.
Tech:
Stabbys are official now.
That was quick.
So combined with Census and Arsenal we have a safe Martial of 5 above normal.
This is a lot of stabby. It also churns a shitload of culture from true cities, but we're already getting that.
...and now the Infrastructure Passive isn't a problem because they can invest into this all day and the bullshit only grows bigger.
It's hilarious when combined with Libraries for the Mysticism overflow.
Heh, our poor clerks. Truly they bear the heavens upon their backs.
The decision to treat the head injury sufferer is one of the best ones for precedent. The poor guy.
And the priests are making leaps in psychology from studying their dates.
No result yet except...
The bolded really killed me here.
Historically, there is always That Guy.
And whoever dealt with That Guy each generation was always annoyed enough to write it into the histories.
Oh cool, the Games are spread out across multiple venues instead of only in one place. So horse and chariot races north, but abseiling has to be in the south, boat racing to the west and all that.
But the center was Redshore because it is the nexus for our trade network
And I see our First Football riot was quelled because our Admin hero made sure that the judges are 120kg Ex Marines, who just spanked everyone and put in fouling rules.
[] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
To be the very best, like no one ever was.
Arete was the original goal of taking Honor of Elites to begin with.
It is not only for the best to seek perfection, it is not only for warriors to pursue supremacy, but all should live their lives in excellence.
Puts a lot of pressure on our elite castes to perform
[] [Mega] Randomly upgrade an Honour Code Value
Well this is likely another step in Swords and Ploughshares or Honorable Death, since the narrative doesn't fit Lord's Loyalty here.
[] [Mega] Free Upgrade of Holy Sea to a temple
This would take all of 0.75 turns under infrastructure passives, if it's a priority. Does help with the religious friction however.
[] [Mega] Free Main Proclaim Glory
...well, if you REALLY wanted a Golden Age right the hell now...
So we refined our understanding here to realize that the flow goes both ways, not just towards war.
Raise Army and Retraining got boosted.
@Academia Nut need to update the additional damage label when you get around to putting it into the OP. Either Life of Arete or Best of the Best.
Before;
After:
Differences:
-Raise Army
--S: Econ -1, Wealth -1, Martial +2
--M: Wealth -1, Martial +2, Culture +1
--2M: Culture +1
-Retraining
--S: Martial -1, Econ Expansion -1, Econ/Culture/Tech +1,
--M: Martial -1, Econ Expansion -1, Econ/Culture/Tech +1,
Stat efficiency is still the same, but action efficiency for when we need an emergency resupply or emergency Martial drop against redness during the mid turn are greatly boosted
Defense levels:
-Significant: 6/40 -> 14/45
-Massive 2/40 -> 4/45
-Watchtowers 30% -> 35%
Stallion Tribes have added a fair chunk of significant walls, but the road is long. Their 100% towers helped when merged in at least
Distribute Land now only adds Progress on Mains. Much better!
Txolla and Hawks has moved closer to integration! Still need to push culture on them, but they can be administratively blobbed now.
Road levels have gone from 2/3; 5/14 -> 2/3; 7/16
Stallions are apparently quite well roaded.
Guild actions:
-Art Patronage
-Build Docks
-Build Glassworks
-Expand Snail Cultivation
-Expand Vineyards
-More Boats
-Plant Hemp
-Plant Poppies
-Support Artisans
-Grand Docks
Oddly enough, Mills and Theaters aren't included. I suppose they only count tangible, tradable goods. Distinctively Second Kind work.
If we can use this to drag the Khemetri Heroic Diplomat over to us for the Games it'd be quite amazing. And if two Great Powers are participating, then that sends a message to the world "if you want to be cool, be here"
We got a metalworking innovation buried in Build Mills, but hopefully we can still do that on the mid turn, we don't have the Wealth to spare.
This should help show off the strength of our military to mitigate the "We can take them" of CA. If I'm not mistaken it should also boost the trade power of Culture items, which is currently just Pilgrimage, but if we build the theaters there might be a market for plays.
I notice this is the first CA flagged Megaproject. Only a cosmopolitan culture can even CONSIDER it.
Expensive as hell, but we can afford it. And refund the whole cost a turn later
Hideously expensive, but it generates a rich, defensible pocket in the North. I'd prefer to wait until the Waaghs are gone and get it done before they're back though. It's rather expensive, but the Pop Explosion soaks it up.
Going by the 24 Econ cost, this should be counted as a True Wonder like Greater Sacred Forest.
And here we see Guild Mercantile being pretty awesome in some ways. Too many things cost Wealth to trigger this ofte, but free Stability is free Stability.
Now to see what to vote once I catch up.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Plant Poppies
To all those debating the coming conquest of the Highlands, look at the tag.
Highland Kingdom Delenda Est.
When you kill the rats you don't leave half of them to scurry away.
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Plant Poppies
To all those debating the coming conquest of the Highlands, look at the tag.
Highland Kingdom Delenda Est.
When you kill the rats you don't leave half of them to scurry away.
- Location
- Staring into the void
Inserted tally
Actually after thinking about it some more I'm thinking skipping on attacking the Highlanders. I don't like them and will probably vote to crush them next time they attack us, but we do not do wars of aggression (well, except against the Xoh).
Taking them down would cost us a lot. And farming Stability from them thanks to Joyous Symphony almost makes up for the costs of fighting them off. It doesn't, but when you add in the opportunity costs it starts to look a lot more reasonable to just sit back and grow.
Taking them down would cost us a lot. And farming Stability from them thanks to Joyous Symphony almost makes up for the costs of fighting them off. It doesn't, but when you add in the opportunity costs it starts to look a lot more reasonable to just sit back and grow.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
But instead of spending a lot of money hiring an exterminator, we could just get a cat. A cute one, with fur black as night.
... The Devil should have a cat.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Just like we will always intergrate Stallions next time. And it took us 600-700 years to actually do
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Are you thinking of setting the Khem on them?
A case of the two Titans, after beating each other silly and BEFRIENDING each other, they turn to look at the tiny asshole who then shits all the bricks.
If so I can only applaud.
I actually really like stat actions here; more than megaproject actions, even.
Our population explosion is absurdly useful, but it really isn't big enough right now to pay for everything we are doing, especially with us being 5 below cap in Econ at the moment. In fact, once we start building the Dam or Docks, I expect to have 2*4 econ per turn drained to the megaproject, which means that we only net 4 Econ after the population explosion... and often enough, that goes to pay for other projects anyways.
Similarly, our other stats? They are doing okay-ish given our stat drip and mysticism refund, but "okay-ish" is not the same thing as "great". I don't think it is necessarily urgent to take care of them, but a bit more progress there means it is less difficult to hit a golden age when we are ready, and more generally we have more of a reserve to let us spend stats without quickly running out.
Actually, lemme do the math. After this turn, assuming Plant Poppies wins over docks, our stats going into midturn will be:
Diplo
Base + Income + Trails - Games x3
10 + 1 + 1 - 9 = 3
Econ
Base + Income - Trails - Poppies
14 + 12 - 1 - 3 = 22 -> 17 + 5 overflow to wealth
EE
Base - Income + Trails Refund - Poppies + Poppies Refund + Econ Overflow Refund + Aqueduct
18 - 12 + 1 - 3 + 2 + 2 + 4 = 12
Martial
Base + Poppies
20 + 1 = 21 {26}
Wealth
Base + Income + Efficient Economy + Econ Overflow + Poppies
2 + 4 + 1 + 5 + 5 = 17
Culture
Base + Income - Games x3
15 + 1 - 9 = 7
Mysticism
Base + Income - Games x3 (+ Games Refund)
16 + 8 - 9 (+6) = 15 (+6)
Tech
Base
6 = 6
NOTE: This doesn't include the effect from the two secondary province actions that aren't needed for the megaproject, or the 3 extra project our passive infrastructure will be able to make after finishing the Aqueduct, so those will change things somewhat.
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Also the culture refund from the International Games due to it being a Social project.