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Paths of Civilization

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Seriously guys why not all three we are switching to a more advanced government anyway so we should be able to handle the extra complexity
Susano said:
Once again, 90% in agriculture does not mean 90% farmers. The majority of those 90% will be farm hands, day labourers and other menial workers on the farms.
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Yes and these people are paid a portion of food which they use a portion of to pay their taxes that was how the previous system worked now you are making it so that those people who used to be able to pay with food now have to work extra hours or get coin.
 
[X] [Law] Community health

i feel that practicality of enforcement and flexibility will lead to ignoring shit with flimsy excuses

[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)

heroic is heroic

[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit

[X] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot
 
Reader of all said:
It was in the previous tax code the one we are currently using which was a flat labor and quota food tax.
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Ah, here it is.

Looks like the current system is, if you're directly harvesting something (including fishing and mining), you pay a quota out of that, otherwise you pay a labor tax. Note that time spent working a farm counts toward your labor requirement.

In light of that, I'm actually OK with sticking to labor + coin. Anyone who isn't currently paying a labor tax is full-time producing something that could be directly sold for coin, and is probably quite well off as a result. Those who are not well off, are best served by taxing labor, which everyone has, rather than goods, which they might not. AFAICT, there won't be anyone substantially put out by this, especially anyone who can't afford it.
 
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ThrawnCA said:
Ah, here it is.

Looks like the current system is, if you're directly harvesting something (including fishing and mining), you pay a quota out of that, otherwise you pay a labor tax.

In light of that, I'm actually OK with sticking to labor + coin. Anyone who isn't currently paying a labor tax is full-time producing something that could be directly sold for coin, and is probably quite well off as a result. Those who are not well off, are best served by taxing labor, which everyone has, rather than goods, which they might not. AFAICT, there won't be anyone substantially put out by this, especially anyone who can't afford it.
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I basically view it as you either pay taxes or get a job working for the government.
 
Reader of all said:
Yes and these people are paid a portion of food which they use a portion of to pay their taxes that was how the previous system worked now you are making it so that those people who used to be able to pay with food now have to work extra hours or get coin.
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I just read through the update where the current system was described, and no the farmhands don't pay food tax; their time on the farm counts toward their labor tax.
 
Carrnage said:
i feel that practicality of enforcement and flexibility
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They're pretty much opposites, actually. The downside of flexibility is not that it will ignore things, far from it; rather, it's far more complex to maintain and to understand, with a much greater risk of simple failure. Remember, the previous tax crisis occurred because people couldn't understand and apply what was theoretically a good law.
 
Carrnage said:
[X] [Law] Community health

i feel that practicality of enforcement and flexibility will lead to ignoring shit with flimsy excuses

[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)

heroic is heroic

[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit

[X] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot
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And community will lead to ignoring problems or expanding then under even more flimsy excuses of community good.
After all one needs but define the community, and then any actions that fall outside of it but benefits it is good.
An extreme example would be Ymaryn defining community on citizen lines, and so having half exile slave plantations is now acceptable since it benefits the community. And the exiles are not member of the community. Or it can lead to cannibalising one segment of the community for others.


Let's not pretend that ideal-maxim based systems are infallible.
 
pblur said:
*Dives for the back of the throne and catches the vampire*

"Here floaty friend. You may pet the most spectacular tail in the world while I finish catching up on the doings through the portal"
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*pets*

"Soooooo... Fluffy!" *hugs*

Shit is surprisingly not yet on fire O Wise Wolf.


ThrawnCA said:
Definitely this. I have to think that in the long run, megaprojects will give us the best payoff. And with the population explosion, we have an unprecedented opportunity to have them fully funded. Note that both the Dam and PttS require significant Econ. And a heroic Mystic leader might, as previously mentioned, make PttS practical even without having done the Study Stars chain (which, let's face it, we're likely to never do). Still, it wouldn't hurt to start studying the Stars while doing the Dam and Games.

Since the Dam will give Stability when completed, while we're already at max, and since it's still at 4-6 actions, we could even consider kicking it.
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I'm pretty sure that the Canal has paid for itself so many times over that we could have built 10 Greater Sacred Forests.


Anyway going to put my vote down.

[X][Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
[X][Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X][Tax] Labour or coin
[X][Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit

[X][Law] Community health

It pains me in the soul bits to not take a tech upgrade but ehh, this will handle any extra complexity we accidentally pick and will give us many more options, considering what the Early version did. Plus it is kinda funny to only have spent a single turn on the Early mode.

Bynwyn is that you? These guys are always fun to watch at work. Alchemist King!

Very good arguments have been made and this basically solves our central problem(people with lots of coin but no time paying people with no coin but lots of time to do their unskilled labor for them), with food or coin being less so, near as I can tell so I'm all for it.

Heheheheheheheh. *diabolical expression* Yes, we will help you. *Sluuuuuurp*
Archimedes was a very smart man when he said that he could move the world with a large enough lever.

Cool! I think the many many arguments on this have been well thought out and have satisfied me as to this being a good choice.
 
ThrawnCA said:
Hey, we haven't done any surveys recently...do you reckon the provinces will expand forest if we start the Grand Docks?
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Almost certainly as a panic reaction they'll main the shit out of it.

Which is kinda funny, but calls for some narrative calling out the current king as a dumbass.
 
BungieONI said:
Almost certainly as a panic reaction
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It just seems like the most reliable way to have the provinces take forest actions right now...especially since I'd rather stay on megaproject policy.

So, Grand Docks next turn at normal pace to give the Golden Age time to begin, then kick the Dam on the following turn?

Or do we just start the Dam next turn without kicking, expecting refugees to drop Stability in time for the Dam bonus to fix it? Backup option, I think AN said it would probably become prestige. And we would then be finishing the Dam during the Golden Age.

Or do we start the Dam and Games simultaneously, thus making both take long enough that we can reasonably expect to have time for refugee waves? Granted, that would delay influence and integrations, but OTOH, the Hawks - and any wild nomads! - will absolutely love the games, and the Dam will connect us much better to the Txolla.
 
ThrawnCA said:
It just seems like the most reliable way to have the provinces take forest actions right now...especially since I'd rather stay on megaproject policy.

So, Grand Docks next turn at normal pace to give the Golden Age time to begin, then kick the Dam on the following turn?

Or do we just start the Dam next turn without kicking, expecting refugees to drop Stability in time for the Dam bonus to fix it? Backup option, I think AN said it would probably become prestige. And we would then be finishing the Dam during the Golden Age.

Or do we start the Dam and Games simultaneously, thus making both take long enough that we can reasonably expect to have time for refugee waves? Granted, that would delay influence and integrations, but OTOH, the Hawks - and any wild nomads! - will absolutely love the games, and the Dam will connect us much better to the Txolla.
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I favor one at a time. We've got a lot of other stuff to do. Like integrating the Stallions. And we may end up dropping stability to not get a Golden Age this turn yet.
 
@Academia Nut
We have chained sturdy stars up to 5 times in the past, do we get a bonus for PttS as if we just chained it because of record keeping?
 
Glassware said:
I favor one at a time. We've got a lot of other stuff to do. Like integrating the Stallions.
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I did address that...

There is also a school of thought that starting double megaprojects might get us a legacy. Assuming that the Khemetri didn't ALREADY SWIPE THAT ONE, and assuming that it exists.
And we may end up dropping stability to not get a Golden Age this turn yet.
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All the more reason to start the Dam? And if we start two projects at once, then actions will be divided between them, so they'll both take a bit longer, allowing us to fix Stability manually.

I'm pretty sure AN has suggested that there may be special benefits for megaprojects during golden ages. Plus, some projects offer innovation chances while running, so letting both run longer may increase our opportunities.

ETA We gotta do something to use up our Population Explosion. Don't forget, the tax damage is now ending, so we'll have lots of Wealth overflow even before our absurd Econ overflow - and Econ is already maxed!
 
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ThrawnCA said:
It just seems like the most reliable way to have the provinces take forest actions right now...especially since I'd rather stay on megaproject policy.

So, Grand Docks next turn at normal pace to give the Golden Age time to begin, then kick the Dam on the following turn?

Or do we just start the Dam next turn without kicking, expecting refugees to drop Stability in time for the Dam bonus to fix it? Backup option, I think AN said it would probably become prestige. And we would then be finishing the Dam during the Golden Age.

Or do we start the Dam and Games simultaneously, thus making both take long enough that we can reasonably expect to have time for refugee waves? Granted, that would delay influence and integrations, but OTOH, the Hawks - and any wild nomads! - will absolutely love the games, and the Dam will connect us much better to the Txolla.
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Starting both at the same time would not have our provinces split their attention since the way the law works is to double one main that is already formed.

Unless it changes how that works, but I don't think it will in that direction.

Grand Docks... *Checks it's current time scale*
Yeah, at 4-6 turns, if we our actions are.
[Main] Grand Docks
[Secondary] Expand Forest
[Secondary] Something, maybe merc company to lower martial

Our provinces will probably take
[Main] Grand Docks x2
[Secondary] Expand Forest

to give us a full forest and complete the docks in one turn.

Again, though, what exactly will happen is going to probably change a lot as this is not the Law actually completing yet, and that plus the government reform is likely to change something about our action economy.
 
Before we talk megaprojects yet again, shouldn't we finally work towards integrating the Stallions? And regarding megaprojects, what happened to considering The Games?
 
Huh.

So, last turn, I raised concerns about our +11 passive income, and how if we weren't careful to actually spend it, it could fill everything and start pushing Martial into the red. However, people expressed confidence that we would have no real trouble spending it.

Now our passive income is net +17. With Econ and Wealth already maxed, and Diplomacy nearly there, we can anticipate maxing Culture and mostly filling Tech this turn.
 
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[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
 
Manget said:
Look the way I see it either unskilled workers are going to be annoyed as they have to pay taxes in coins cause labour is the thing they have the most of. or farmers are going to be annoyed because food is the thing they have the most of and we have a lot more farmers then unskilled labourers.
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No, we don't. Most of our agriculture workers are doing what Mexican illegals do today-seasonal unskilled labor. The actual farmers aren't going to be screwed because they'll be able to sell their food and get coin that way.
 
ThrawnCA said:
I did address that...

There is also a school of thought that starting double megaprojects might get us a legacy. Assuming that the Khemetri didn't ALREADY SWIPE THAT ONE, and assuming that it exists.

All the more reason to start the Dam? And if we start two projects at once, then actions will be divided between them, so they'll both take a bit longer, allowing us to fix Stability manually.

I'm pretty sure AN has suggested that there may be special benefits for megaprojects during golden ages. Plus, some projects offer innovation chances while running, so letting both run longer may increase our opportunities.

ETA We gotta do something to use up our Population Explosion. Don't forget, the tax damage is now ending, so we'll have lots of Wealth overflow even before our absurd Econ overflow - and Econ is already maxed!
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ThrawnCA said:
Huh.

So, last turn, I raised concerns about our +11 passive income, and how if we weren't careful to actually spend it, it could fill everything and start pushing Martial into the red. However, people expressed confidence that we would have no real trouble spending it.

Now our passive income is net +17.
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I maintain that this is a good thing - worst case scenario, we push hard for a Golden Age and keep taking the expensive Golden Age Innovations, which are designed to use up such a surplus of stats.

Although I'd be tempted to get everything overflowing at least once, to grab a legacy...
 
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