*Roughly looks over current analysis.*

I find them lacking, though I suppose the desire to get stuff out the door made people quick on the draw there.

The Law of the People of the Hills

Before we go into things, we must ask. What is the purpose of the Law for the people? How does the Ymaryn government work? Because, one must keep in mind, the law represents the State itself. It will be our national identity, what we do and how we do it. The Law is what defines a nation, more than any other act.

One of the strongest parts of the Ymaryn government is it's Palace Economy, that the central government acts as a giant food safety net to keep people alive, happy, and healthy. It is why we can keep a baby boom going even when an environmental crises comes, it probably has a lot to do with our now upgraded population explosion trait. Combined with our special abilities such as symphony and sacred forest wonder (which also helped with keeping the baby boom going), we are, have always been, and will likely continue to be, specialists in food security.

So, the first part of the Ymaryn identity. Food Security, it is a cultural ingraining that pervades every part of our society.



There is another part of the Ymaryn that is closely related to this. The strength of the community. For better or worse, the Ymaryn frequently give up their strength as an individual for the betterment of the community. Whether that means keeping quiet for the sake of not causing trouble or even putting the community first before the law itself. The flip side of this is that when the Ymaryn see their community being attacked, they do not take it well.

So, while there are many things that define the Ymaryn in many ways, those would probably be the core of any argument I would make when choosing our identity going forward.
  1. Protection of food.
  2. Protection of the community
Now, moving on. It seems like almost all of our laws exist around the second part of the Ymaryn identity.

[] [Law] Honour the gods
We see what this means in the beginning of the chapter. Peace, prosperity, and protection of the land are what the Ymaryn currently believe the gods desire them to achieve. Laws made to honor the gods would likely focus on these things, perhaps giving the priests more power to interpret these things in the process.

This aims to increase the spirit of the community, giving our people stronger bonds and a greater sense of purpose. If you want the Ymaryn to focus on peace and prosperity, this is the group of laws to follow.


[] [Law] Maintain stability
Maintaining the stability of the state means making sure we keep the strength of the whole. We seek to settle many of the schisms where the entire community is willing to sacrifice itself for the strength of an individual, yet keep that individual's rights low.

This aims to increase the strength of both the community and individual. Unflappability and the ability to weather the toughest crises are what our community is founded on. This may come at a cost to both the community and individual, however, as they need to make compromises for the sake of others. If you want the Ymaryn to focus on weathering any and every crises, this is the group of laws to follow.


[] [Law] Balance of interests
The rights of the many vs the rights of the individual. This seeks to maintain a balance among all Ymaryn. We will do our best to help each and every Ymaryn achieve what they wish, accepting that there will be limits to what is and is not possible, and that some will simply not be happy with the result. It will likely be one of the harder and more complex issues to deal with, and likely favor those who are more educated, though it may also provide impetus to give everyone education.

This aims to give rights to all. The strength and aptitude of the individual will be increased with this, though the law will innately favor the individuals who understand it more. If you want the Ymaryn to focus on protecting the rights of people, this is the group of laws to follow.


[] [Law] Community health
The strength of the community is one of the strongest parts of the Ymaryn legacy, far more so than any of our neighbors, honestly. Simultaneously the communities of the Ymaryn tend to be loosely defined, ever changing, and adapting depending on the needs of the times.

This aims to find and route out individuals who seek to harm the community as a whole, either through extortion, coercion, or the causing of difficult to define harm to people. There is the possibility of creating a flock mentality, but the greater problem is likely going to be the intermixing of communities caused by cities and large areas of people. If you wish to have laws focused around protecting people as a whole and to stop large scale crime operations, this is the group of laws to follow.


[] [Law] Flexibility
What is law? This is one of the two options that is less about the law as it refers to the Ymaryn, but focuses on the Law itself. By questioning the laws constantly, we focus on the ever changing needs of the people. But, more importantly, since the law is one of the greatest representations of the State, it also focuses on us constantly questioning what the purpose of the state is.

This aims to evolve the government as needed, though our ability to do that will be highly dependent on the number and intelligence of our scholars. This is an immensely difficult path, but it offers one of the most adaptable forms of government in the long run, if we can survive to it. If you wish to have laws that allow the government to change with the times, this is the group of laws to follow.


[] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
The polar opposite of Flexibility, this is the other option that focuses more on the nature of the law itself and, again, the nature of the Ymaryn State by extension. Here, the question is, what is the purpose of laws if they can not be enforced? A law that exists in words and intent only would confuse and baffle most everyone not devoted to its study, especially at this time.

This aims to make sure the government can always actually function. The stability of, not the people, but the government itself, and making sure that all of its operations are as effective as we realistically can achieve, is its goal. The 'realist' ideal of government, if you will. The path is stable, but hard to evolve into new forms precisely because of it. It will require a great number of encouraging arts and culture to evolve the government, since that will not happen naturally. If you wish to have laws that allow for a strong government, this is the group of laws to follow.


I would really like to encourage people to understand the magnitude of the choice here. Laws are one of the purist forms of the state and its intent, and we are deciding the direction of our first actually complex laws here. This will shape Ymaryn society for hundreds, if not thousands of years directly, and continue to indirectly shape Ymaryn society throughout time as its echos are heard.


Now, I'm going to try and put aside my preconceptions of what a society should be and think about this hard. I'll probably check the vote tally too, as I have not yet done that.
 
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Pretty hard choices, especially between L+C vs L+F+C for tax.

I'm off the opinion that since we're already doing L+F to a certain extent, it won't be that much strain on our administration to add coin on top of it.

There's also no option to have full government's control on major grain/basic food distribution. Don't mind selling it to the other polity, as long as it's via government venture. We might be able to add grain as another dominant trade goods given our relatively advance agriculture tech.

[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin

[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
 
So.... how would you stop government from massively issuing credit notes and crashed the economy like John Law's French friend who happened to be a duke with power?



When it happens once, it tends to not happen again as lessons are learned, some technologies have no way of preemptive fixing of flaws. On the other hand such a course is dependent heavily on wide spread banking for the trading in of such notes, as well as compatible culture ethos, which we can influence. And banking is still a few centuries away.
 
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Mystic hero + golden age = hope for mass education
We in no way have the resources or means for that.

How would the kingdom even know they exist
Dude, we just did a full census! Also, they still do live somewhere. And sometimes have family.

Why are you now making so many extra assumptions ("the farm will pay as a whole", "day labourers aren't taxed"), just because you want farm owners to be able to pay in food? Why are you so wed to that special interest group?
 
So, we meet at last, Tax. My fore-bearers had faced you with a fierceness befitting the Ymaryn name. I shall do the same.

Choose a philosophy: We have many choices. They all have benefits and drawbacks. As always, remember that we are only in the Iron Age.
[X] [Law] Honour the gods
Base the new law off our existing pantheon beliefs. The Law has the virtue of appearing as to be upheld by a higher power that cannot be corrupted. Our gods are all relatively benign. Crow is, however, the Trickster, Teacher and Devourer thrice foremost and cannot be trusted to uphold mortal justice. Perhaps a certain God of Clerks may find more paperwork being sent his way?
[] [Law] Maintain stability
Use the Law to keep everybody relatively happy, thus keeping Stability high. Besides the aforementioned boon, this has a neutral effect of lessening shifts in the status quo as favorable situations and the reverse for any faction are looked into and disrupted. Side-effects may include stagnating as practices that lower Stability preemptively snuffed out and large enough factions may get away with things as judging them would result in instability.
[] [Law] Balance of interests
Keep the wants and needs of all people in check with the Law. Pressure is applied onto more unsavory practices and a voice is granted to those usually unheard. Might birth a 'loyal opposition' in the council as it brings such matters raised by said voices into consideration. Current form of corruption is merely suppressed, however, and should there be enough calls for action or inaction, the far lesser faction would find its interests ignored.
[X] [Law] Community health
Encourage the spirit of caring for one's neighbors and fellow citizens with the new Laws. Does wonders for keeping the Ymaryn as gentle, generous tree-lovers. This approach does not tackle any issues regarding corruption nor does it help maintain order, however, and it can be argued that the domain of the Law is to be fair and impartial, not to encourage love and kindness.
[] [Law] Flexibility
Invent an ever-evolving code of Law. It would have any loopholes swiftly patched and allow for greater scalability and thus more room for growth. The changes made are expected to have backlash (stability loss) attached, however, and would require constant upkeep to remain relevant. An expensive, EXPENSIVE option to curb corruption. Run, clerks, RUUUUUUN!
[] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
Create a Law that can be upheld perfectly. Perceived corruption drops to zero. The government is seen to be doing its job as all lawbreakers are caught and promptly punished. Largely papers over the real problems and may also encourage people to only follow the word and not the spirit of the law.

How can taxes be paid? How will the clerks escape?

[] [Tax] Coin only
The clerks will celebrate and bring us into the next Golden Age with their sheer joy alone. Alas, it is not meant to be.
[] [Tax] Food or coin
Easily quantifiable but perishable and non-productive. Low-ish admin strain. Elevates farmers.
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
Hard to quantify but non-perishable and productive. High-ish admin strain. Elevates artisans.
[] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
Run, clerks, RUUUUUUN!

Can food be sold?

[] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
Boosts our resistance Econ damage due to crisis through the roof. No benefit to wealth gain. No admin strain.
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
Boosts our resistance Econ damage due to crisis slightly. Slight benefit to wealth gain. Average admin strain.
[] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern
No boost to our resistance Econ damage due to crisis. Major benefit to wealth gain. No admin strain.

Change the heir? Brains or Brawn?

[] [Heir] No, compromise is good (Mediocre Admin and Martial, Average Diplo)
Selling point is no major weaknesses. Pass.
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
Man who does thinky stuff.
[] [Heir] A strong general is needed in these times (Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Excellent Martial)
Man with big stick.

Upon completion of the law, choose a bonus

[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
We can make it bigger, faster, stronger...Better.
[] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot
GET ALL THE SLOTS~
[] [Bonus] Randomly upgrade a value
Something will work better somehow.
[] [Bonus] Enter Golden Age immediately
Don't really need to, on the verge of one already.
[] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
To those tempted by this. Stop. Get some help. Say no to dice today.

I'll add in the crosses after some more thinking.
EDIT: Thinking done. Law to make the Ymaryn nice again. Labour or coins for tax. Government encourage a safety net in terms of food but allow excess to be sold (gives us coins from exports). Thinky man better than big stick man. A better monarchy system. Overall slightly above average admin strain expected.
FIGHTO! GANBARE!



Together we shall defeat the enemy! Or die protecting that which needs protecting!

For Life! For Harmony!
 
I'm off the opinion that since we're already doing L+F to a certain extent, it won't be that much strain on our administration to add coin on top of it.
I half agree, but where does it say that we're already taxing food?

ETA Or is that a reference to communal food distribution? I'm not sure whether that's considered a tax per se.
 
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We in no way have the resources or means for that.


Dude, we just did a full census! Also, they still do live somewhere. And sometimes have family.

Why are you now making so many extra assumptions ("the farm will pay as a whole", "day labourers aren't taxed"), just because you want farm owners to be able to pay in food? Why are you so wed to that special interest group?

Just two things, one isn't the census just a count of the number of people living in places not where any individuals in particular are living? and two farmers are the largest group by a lot and no one else seems to be arguing for them in particular As they're definitely gonna dislike the option of paying in food being taken away.
 
Just two things, one isn't the census just a count of the number of people living in places not where any individuals in particular are living? and two farmers are the largest group by a lot and no one else seems to be arguing for them in particular As they're definitely gonna dislike the option of paying in food being taken away.
.....so they'll pay in coin. As repeatedly pointed out they're the middle class in our society, and can afford to pay in coin. Especially if we allow foreign sales of food in one form or another, as seems to be the case with the current vote.
 
I half agree, but where does it say that we're already taxing food?

ETA Or is that a reference to communal food distribution? I'm not sure whether that's considered a tax per se.

Hmm, my thought process:

Since farms (& all lands anyway) are owned by government, the food/grain produced are collected to the grainaries as a form of "Tax". I don't think the government bought it with coins.

Alternatively, all grains were government's anyway & the labor itself is the "Tax".

I think the first is more likely. Thoughts?
 
I see the vote has already both become incredibly one sided and has the majority of voters already deciding. :eyebrow:
Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 3336 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 83391-83787]
##### NetTally 1.9.8
Task: Law
[49][Law] Community health
[17][Law] Balance of interests
[10][Law] Practicality of enforcement
[8][Law] Flexibility
[4][Law] Honour the gods
[3][Law] Maintain stability

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Food
[60][Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[8][Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
[8][Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern
[2][Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labor as they see fit
[1][Food] The crown will maintainemergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern
[1][Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit.

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Tax
[44][Tax] Labour or coin
[25][Tax] Food or coin
[11][Tax] Food, labour, or coin
[2][Tax] Coin only

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Heir
[70][Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[6][Heir] No, compromise is good (Mediocre Admin and Martial, Average Diplo)
[2][Heir] A strong general is needed in these times (Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Excellent Martial)
[1][Heir] Let the wise lead us (PoorMartial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[1][Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial,Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Bonus
[66][Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
[13][Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
[5][Bonus] Randomly upgrade a value
[5][Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot
[1][Bonus] Enter Golden Age immediately
Total No. of Voters: 85

Well I can't say I'm surprised or entirely against the law choice (then again, I don't think any of them are bad), but I am a little saddened by the speed at which people are deciding something I view as being so critical to the development of Ymaryn society and the likely many repercussions this will have.
 
Well I can't say I'm surprised or entirely against the law choice (then again, I don't think any of them are bad), but I am a little saddened by the speed at which people are deciding something I view as being so critical to the development of Ymaryn society and the likely many repercussions this will have.
On the one hand, that is true; on the other hand, we won't get any additional information within the next 24 hours (or less) before the next update...and lots of voters might not be able to spend long here. Those who do, have the option to change votes if something new convinces them.

If it makes you feel any better, I did read through everyone else's points before deciding.
 
Soo have people already considered what to do the next turn?

I'm either for starting the Dam which
1. could be finished in the same turn as the Law allowing us to finish us two mega projects within the sam Generation, maybe unlocking us a new legacy
2. spends enough econ to keep the populations explosion

or switch to balance which
1. encourages them to spend econ to keep the explosion going
2. allows us to pursue different avenues, such as planting poppies or building boats

or switch to defence which
1. allows us to spend incredible amongs of econ to keep the explosion going and get massive walls, which might get us the great wall unlocked
 
Is it really a special interest group of they make up 90% of the population. If anything the half exiles and the like are the special interest groups while the farmers are the common masses.
Once again, 90% in agriculture does not mean 90% farmers. The majority of those 90% will be farm hands, day labourers and other menial workers on the farms.
 
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Do we definitely know whether food is currently considered a method of paying taxes?

Because the update said that everyone is required to pay a labor tax, no exceptions, thus the illegal-but-ignored practice of paying someone to fill your labor quota for you if you have more money than time. Nothing is said about food tax.

So I figure "labor OR coin" is a simple step up from "labor OR half-exile".

If someone can persuade me that the current system includes food tax, then I'll switch my vote to include all three.
 
Soo have people already considered what to do the next turn?

I'm either for starting the Dam which
1. could be finished in the same turn as the Law allowing us to finish us two mega projects within the sam Generation, maybe unlocking us a new legacy
2. spends enough econ to keep the populations explosion

or switch to balance which
1. encourages them to spend econ to keep the explosion going
2. allows us to pursue different avenues, such as planting poppies or building boats

or switch to defence which
1. allows us to spend incredible amongs of econ to keep the explosion going and get massive walls, which might get us the great wall unlocked

I'm okay with the Dam, if there's nothing on fire.
 
Do we definitely know whether food is currently considered a method of paying taxes?

Because the update said that everyone is required to pay a labor tax, no exceptions, thus the illegal-but-ignored practice of paying someone to fill your labor quota for you if you have more money than time. Nothing is said about food tax.

So I figure "labor OR coin" is a simple step up from "labor OR half-exile".

If someone can persuade me that the current system includes food tax, then I'll switch my vote to include all three.
It was in the previous tax code the one we are currently using which was a flat labor and quota food tax.
 
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*Dives for the back of the throne and catches the vampire*

"Here floaty friend. You may pet the most spectacular tail in the world while I finish catching up on the doings through the portal"
 
Soo have people already considered what to do the next turn?

I'm either for starting the Dam which
1. could be finished in the same turn as the Law allowing us to finish us two mega projects within the sam Generation, maybe unlocking us a new legacy
2. spends enough econ to keep the populations explosion
Definitely this. I have to think that in the long run, megaprojects will give us the best payoff. And with the population explosion, we have an unprecedented opportunity to have them fully funded. Note that both the Dam and PttS require significant Econ. And a heroic Mystic leader might, as previously mentioned, make PttS practical even without having done the Study Stars chain (which, let's face it, we're likely to never do). Still, it wouldn't hurt to start studying the Stars while doing the Dam and Games.

Since the Dam will give Stability when completed, while we're already at max, and since it's still at 4-6 actions, we could even consider kicking it.
 
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
 
we had chained study stars multiple times to 4 or 5 and we still should have the records.
so there's that.
 
[X][Law] Balance of interests
[X][Law] Practicality of enforcement
[X][Tax] Labour or coin

I mostly agree with the other choices, but community health is quite low on my priority list. It's way too flexible a philosophy.
 
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