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Paths of Civilization

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Manget said:
True that's why I want 90% of our population to be able to pay in something else.
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Which as had been already stated, farmers have labor in excess.

You may want to note that the Food tax actually disadvantages farmers. They get better profit just selling the grain at market rates. The Labor tax advantages farmers, because they have the largest amount of free time.

Coin advantages the elites who can leverage value differentials to generate a shitload of coins despite relatively few hours of work.
It advantages large farmers, while disadvantaging small farmers as it requires trading their grain to gain wealth to pay taxes with.
It puts the urban poor at the mercy of the elites to gain enough coin to pay their taxes.

Food advantages the elites who can leverage value differentials to always pay the cheaper of coin or food by using the market.
It is neutral to farmers, who pay in food, but lose out on the profit of the food's price differentials to the elites.
It puts the urban poor at the mercy of the elites to gain enough coin to pay their taxes AND enough food to feed themselves.

Labor advantages the farmers, who have the greatest amount of free time for unskilled labors.
It is advantageous to the urban poor due to applying in effect a minimum amount of coin you can earn working for the government.
It is neutral-disadvantageous to the elites who can only pay in Coin, which they have plenty of, but it drives up labor costs, which would hurt them in the wallet.
 
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
 
[X] [Law] Community health
[] [Tax] not sure
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
 
Manget said:
Or as I said the poorest shouldn't pay taxes at all but they will have to if the labour tax goes through. It's not like we're going to let people starve it goes against all our values.

And they gaming the system now if the price of labour is lower then the coin tax then they can game the system. also the king's advisors are of course paid in some way or another or they have another source of income they're the most powerful elite members of our society of course they wealthy and if you are working for the king why would you need to pay any other taxes.
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If there is any option to not pay any tax, that's the most prone to gaming.
 
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

Updating vote.

Honestly i'm thinking the added complexity in our taxes and law will be covered by the upgraded government. The focus on community health would theoretically develop laws against exploiting refugees, unfair working conditions, etc (resulting in less corruption).
 
veekie said:
Which as had been already stated, farmers have labor in excess.

You may want to note that the Food tax actually disadvantages farmers. They get better profit just selling the grain at market rates. The Labor tax advantages farmers, because they have the largest amount of free time.

Coin advantages the elites who can leverage value differentials to generate a shitload of coins despite relatively few hours of work.
It advantages large farmers, while disadvantaging small farmers as it requires trading their grain to gain wealth to pay taxes with.
It puts the urban poor at the mercy of the elites to gain enough coin to pay their taxes.

Food advantages the elites who can leverage value differentials to always pay the cheaper of coin or food by using the market.
It is neutral to farmers, who pay in food, but lose out on the profit of the food's price differentials to the elites.
It puts the urban poor at the mercy of the elites to gain enough coin to pay their taxes AND enough food to feed themselves.

Labor advantages the farmers, who have the greatest amount of free time for unskilled labors.
It is advantageous to the urban poor due to applying in effect a minimum amount of coin you can earn working for the government.
It is neutral-disadvantageous to the elites who can only pay in Coin, which they have plenty of, but it drives up labor costs, which would hurt them in the wallet.
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Labour being the way unskilled people pay taxes is going to be the worst one for people on the ground to pay taxes in at least when it comes to time spent so farmers I gonna try and pay in coin which causes the common problem of cash crops crowding out food crops causing man-made famines. And Y are the most poor in the cities having to pay taxes at all if they unskilled labour we can't get much out them anyway.
 
Manget said:
Or as I said the poorest shouldn't pay taxes at all but they will have to if the labour tax goes through. It's not like we're going to let people starve it goes against all our values.
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Without arguing about whether they should or not, they do already, and will continue to in any system, and our values don't change that. Naha sure was almost starving even with them. We just can't support welfare.
 
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

You know what why not we have the stab to tank the problems this will cause and it may be good to give people alternate ways to pay their taxes plus since we already accept labour and food adding coin should be easier than people make it out to be.
 
Andres110 said:
@veekie, I think that these are the trap votes, not Coin+Labour+Food. Our people already pay in Labour or Food. This would be a simple addition of allowing people to pay with Coin instead. Coin+Food means our people have to STOP paying labour as tax. Coin+Labour means our people have to STOP paying food as tax. The two options aren't just creating an addition, they're each creating a restriction. Coin+Food+Labour means we just add one thing rather than add one thing AND remove one thing. C+F+L will create a lot less disruption than any of the other options.

The only thing it changes is that it allows our artisans, our wealthy, and our elites to pay in coin. Nothing else. The other options, in addition to that, will change the way either our rural poor or our urban poor pay taxes.
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Complexity burden of pinning the right exchange rates is substantial.
Manget said:
Or as I said the poorest shouldn't pay taxes at all but they will have to if the labour tax goes through. It's not like we're going to let people starve it goes against all our values.
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You are deliberately generating a system by which an entire social class is literally unable to pay their taxes.
Which is what caused this crisis.
What happens when the poor cannot pay taxes is that the wealthy can employ them at unfavorable terms to pay them JUST enough money to pay their taxes or their food...or they just outright break the law.

That's called forcing people into crime.
Which is the problem we had!


And they gaming the system now if the price of labour is lower then the coin tax then they can game the system. also the king's advisors are of course paid in some way or another or they have another source of income they're the most powerful elite members of our society of course they wealthy and if you are working for the king why would you need to pay any other taxes.
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And here you have outright faulty logic.
You make multiple contradictory claims here.

Either the King's advisors are working for the State, and thus deducting their taxes owed from their working hours, saving the state the money needed to pay them, or they aren't and thus cannot deduct.

They do not have alternative, legal sources of income as investment has not yet been invented, and nobody owns land to generate passive wealth.
 
veekie said:
(this is one of the reasons Naha may have deliberately gotten pregnant, since it relieves her burdens).
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How do you deliberately got pregnant when forced to sell your body? Condoms or safer drugs preventing impregnation doesn't exist yet. The herbs for removing babies does exist but those are poisoning the mothers too. I don't think the state is involved in her case at all, since she still suffers after multiple births and mentioning her sons might be one of the miners.

So no support for the refugees at all.
 
Killer_Whale said:
If there is any option to not pay any tax, that's the most prone to gaming.
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If your income in the USA is long enough right now you don't pay taxes. Rome one of the largest cities in the world at this point in time had a grain doll for just this reason as they couldn't get any taxes out of them and if they didn't feed them they riot.
 
Reader of all said:
You know what why not we have the stab to tank the problems this will cause and it may be good to give people alternate ways to pay their taxes plus since we already accept labour and food adding coin should be easier than people make it out to be.
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1) we have the stab but I would rather not have to spend multiple actions on dealing with another tax crisis
2) the update specifically states that doing all three as a means of paying taxes is the most complex:
Academia Nut said:
There was the obvious compromise of allowing multiple forms of payment to be valid for paying taxes, but that would increase the complexity of implementing the process successfully.
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veekie said:
Complexity burden of pinning the right exchange rates is substantial.


You are deliberately generating a system by which an entire social class is literally unable to pay their taxes.
Which is what caused this crisis.
What happens when the poor cannot pay taxes is that the wealthy can employ them at unfavorable terms to pay them JUST enough money to pay their taxes or their food...or they just outright break the law.

That's called forcing people into crime.
Which is the problem we had!



And here you have outright faulty logic.
You make multiple contradictory claims here.

Either the King's advisors are working for the State, and thus deducting their taxes owed from their working hours, saving the state the money needed to pay them, or they aren't and thus cannot deduct.

They do not have alternative, legal sources of income as investment has not yet been invented, and nobody owns land to generate passive wealth.
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And you keep missing the point why are these people being made to pay taxes they can't afford they should just go on the grain doll and see if they can find employment later.

if they are not getting paid and they're not independently wealthy then how are we run by oligarchs.
 
RulerOfNothing said:
1) we have the stab but I would rather not have to spend multiple actions on dealing with another tax crisis
2) the update specifically states that doing all three as a means of paying taxes is the most complex:
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Aren't we advancing to a more advanced government? While we have no idea how good that upgrade will be it should be enough to stop us from breaking outright.
 
Why is it desirable for the poor to not pay taxes? The poor already have a food ration and if there is anyway of getting value out of them then that's great not a downside.
 
Manget said:
Labour being the way unskilled people pay taxes is going to be the worst one for people on the ground to pay taxes in at least when it comes to time spent so farmers I gonna try and pay in coin which causes the common problem of cash crops crowding out food crops causing man-made famines. And Y are the most poor in the cities having to pay taxes at all if they unskilled labour we can't get much out them anyway.
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So lets address farmer payment options:
-Coin
--Sell crops, get coin, pay with coin. The growing of cash crops is not available to private enterprise, the government must specifically set aside land for cash crop production over food production. Evidence lies with our Vineyard and Opium plantations.
--Try to learn a skilled labor and use it to make money in the growing season and fallow season. Fail, because you are outcompeted by full time artisans.
-Labor
--Spend your growing season repairing the roads for your taxes, so you get to keep the entire proceeds of the sale of your harvest

Taxes must be paid, we do not have the technological capacity to individually assess a person's inability to pay taxes, so EVERYONE is taxed. You can refer to Naha, who sure as hell could only pay her taxes at all because it was labor.

How would Naha pay a Food tax? By choosing to starve?

The majority of government required labor is manual unskilled labor. We have a lot of those. What with being a stone age society. We won't be losing unskilled labor demand by the state until the invention of steam power.
 
Manget said:
And you keep missing the point why are these people being made to pay taxes they can't afford they should just go on the grain doll and see if they can find employment later.
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No, they will pay taxes somehow, finding whatever job they can, or they will starve to death. With labor tax they just can pay it directly with their labor, instead of trying to find some job that gets them coin to pay it. And since they are unskilled, there's not a lot of jobs like that.
 
veekie said:
So lets address farmer payment options:
-Coin
--Sell crops, get coin, pay with coin. The growing of cash crops is not available to private enterprise, the government must specifically set aside land for cash crop production over food production. Evidence lies with our Vineyard and Opium plantations.
--Try to learn a skilled labor and use it to make money in the growing season and fallow season. Fail, because you are outcompeted by full time artisans.
-Labor
--Spend your growing season repairing the roads for your taxes, so you get to keep the entire proceeds of the sale of your harvest

Taxes must be paid, we do not have the technological capacity to individually assess a person's inability to pay taxes, so EVERYONE is taxed. You can refer to Naha, who sure as hell could only pay her taxes at all because it was labor.

How would Naha pay a Food tax? By choosing to starve?

The majority of government required labor is manual unskilled labor. We have a lot of those. What with being a stone age society. We won't be losing unskilled labor demand by the state until the invention of steam power.
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If the only two options are food and coin then what will the unemployed in the city pay with? The answer is nothing they won't pay tax they will be on the grain dole until they can find employment and then pay in coin or moved somewhere they can get employment. The thing I think you're missing is that the people we need to make sure are taxed are the wealthy merchants we need to make sure they're paying in coin and you're kind of killing the farmers with your labour tax they need to be able to pay in food If for no other reason then because they'll hate that they can't.
 
Tally
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jul 24, 2017 at 6:20 AM, finished with 83734 posts and 76 votes.
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VoidZero said:
How do you deliberately got pregnant when forced to sell your body? Condoms or safer drugs preventing impregnation doesn't exist yet. The herbs for removing babies does exist but those are poisoning the mothers too. I don't think the state is involved in her case at all, since she still suffers after multiple births and mentioning her sons might be one of the miners.

So no support for the refugees at all.
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According to AN as of Gwygotha's era we already know how to exercise basic contraception. And since basically forever we have laws regulating how many children people are allowed to have. Specifically, ever since we chose to regulate prostitution it had been highlighted that we actually invest effort into preventing prostitution pregnancies.

So preventing pregnancy is possible, if not particularly reliable, and the lack of pregnancy prevention is one of the symptoms of the system breaking down.

Manget said:
And you keep missing the point why are these people being made to pay taxes they can't afford they should just go on the grain doll and see if they can find employment later.

if they are not getting paid and they're not independently wealthy then how are we run by oligarchs.
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You can refer the update two turns ago. People who cannot afford taxes are still paying taxes. They just work at even worse conditions to afford to do so.


And our oligarches are paid employees of the state. They don't own land, but they own favors, which they exchange with each other to obtain advantageous deals, which allows them to get performance bonuses, which allows them to get rich. They are hereditary because while theoretically everyone is equal, the advantage of having favors owed to your family is so huge that if you aren't born in an administrative family you'd never get anywhere because you lack the contacts.

Being a Chief, Manager, Master, etc are all paid jobs government. It turns out you can get wealthy without being independently wealthy. This means that we can tax our oligarches either on cash, or on their work hours, which would cost them cash anyway.

And yes, we've set up the system so that the best way to get rich is to be really good at your job. Even if you have to cheat
 
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