So, to expand upon my Tax vote with some analysis (because YAY TAXES :V)

[][Tax] Food, labour, or coin
This is incredibly complicated, and specifically called out in-text as being extremely complicated. Expect problems if we do this, both immediately (hard to make the rules work) and long-term (hard to keep all three values in sync with each other)

[][Tax] Food or coin
This is short-term optimal. So long as the harvests are good, the elites pay in coin and the farmers pay in food. The problem then comes in those who are neither. It's not really practical to maintain a small farm, so if you want to try some new innovation that might or might not work it's hard to save up enough coin to both fund the project and pay your taxes.
Furthermore, if we do get a bad harvest, the rural farmers are in a lot of trouble. They don't have coin since the goods they sell (food) is ruined. They don't have food, it was ruined. Thus they either don't pay their taxes or they pay their taxes and starve.

[][Tax] Labour or coin
This is simple: the government wants some large public works project or other government-run low-skill job. They assign some minimum wage and if you don't have the coin, you do the labor. Only unskilled labor need apply, as any skilled labor has coin. Even farmers will have plenty of coin from selling their food, and if not then they have the time to do labor for the government.
It's worse in the short term since it's a bigger change for the farmers, but it also forces them more into the market to sell their food at a higher price than their labor would be worth.
 
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
 
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For those of you voting for labour, I only want to ask you how you expect our administration to track it. We have three million people. How on earth are people supposed to track labour properly? It's a veritable gateway to abuse of the system. Both for and against the taxpayer.
 
If they could do valuable work then they would have the money to pay in coin.
I just wanted a definition of what public works would be tbh.

If it means Black Soil then we're basically forcing a bunch of people into becoming half-exiles because they did spiritually unclean work.

That's just an example. It would primarily encompass grunt work I'm presuming, but at that point we could just pay grunt work with coin, which we already do, and not have to worry about assigning it a labor value at all.
 
For those of you voting for labour, I only want to ask you how you expect our administration to track it. We have three million people. How on earth are people supposed to track labour properly? It's a veritable gateway to abuse of the system. Both for and against the taxpayer.
How does an employer track labor?

Not all government jobs will be paid by taxes. Only unskilled ones. We basically define a wage for the job and benchmark our flat tax to it.

I just wanted a definition of what public works would be tbh.
Trails, Dam, Temples, Aqueducts, walls, rebuilding the city because we do that periodically, all sorts of things.
 
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

@veekie raised a good point
 
quotas or hours, it's not that complicated.

Which can just be made paid jobs and covered by coin. Why make it harder for clerks?

Really, labour tax can juust be made subset of coin tax with paid government projects, it is wholly redundant.
One point of complexity should work out. And government upgrades are immensely valuable for administrating large tracts of land, while also being the hardest one to get.

What about preserving and *being able to upgrade* Wildcat?
 
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For those of you voting for labour, I only want to ask you how you expect our administration to track it. We have three million people. How on earth are people supposed to track labour properly? It's a veritable gateway to abuse of the system. Both for and against the taxpayer.

I'm fairly sure we already track labor, though, it's just done on a local scale. Our current system is actually based on it with the most obvious issue being not incorporating coin, so I assume it takes into account most of our population.

[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

Voting for community health because I want our population being taken care of to be at the center of our legal code.
 
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How does an employer track labor?

Not all government jobs will be paid by taxes. Only unskilled ones. We basically define a wage for the job and benchmark our flat tax to it.


Trails, Dam, Temples, Aqueducts, walls, rebuilding the city because we do that periodically, all sorts of things.
If their participating in such projects why would the government just not pay them in coin instead?

Plus, digging a trench is no where near as intense or complex as building an aqueduct, so I'm not sure why you would consider both to be low level grunt work.
 
Which can just be made paid jobs and coveted by coin. Why make it harder for clerks?
It's basically a guarantee from the government to the people that you can always get a job to pay your taxes. Great for reducing unemployment, and it gives people a sort of social safety net that if things go badly, they can guaranteed still pay their taxes as long as they're able-bodied.

edit: And remember, our communist system means that your taxes pay for your food for most normal people.

Plus, digging a trench is no where near as intense or complex as building an aqueduct, so I'm not sure why you would consider both to be low level grunt work.
Designing an aqueduct is hard, maintaining it or building it as directed by a manager is a lot less so. There's a lot of stone that needs to be hauled. That's why they cost us econ (food/unskilled labor) and not Art (well, culture/tech now, representing skilled labor/artisans).
 
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quotas or hours, it's not that complicated.
How do you track that in the Iron Age and avoid rampant ducking of taxes or corruption? its all well and good to say "hours" but tracks it is something else entirely.

Physical goods are by far the best way to go. If someone can't pay in food, I'll bet they can pay in coin, which they can get by labouring.
 
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I just wanted a definition of what public works would be tbh.

If it means Black Soil then we're basically forcing a bunch of people into becoming half-exiles because they did spiritually unclean work.

That's just an example. It would primarily encompass grunt work I'm presuming, but at that point we could just pay grunt work with coin, which we already do, and not have to worry about assigning it a labor value at all.
Exactly. No one wants to pay in labor. It is only if they don't have coin.
 
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
[X] [Law] Community health

A little gamble and a little stab with some long term gains I think
 
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Yes, but what about the future. It isn't just now we need to worry about. We have to ensure that this law endures and can continue to be followed even in hard times. Look at it this way, can you imagine our admin problems if our first tax code was as complex as we tried to make it the last time?

This isn't a one time thing, don't treat it like it is.

And anyway, why go more complex when there is no need to? I admit our modern tax codes are very intricate, but at least we only pay in a single resource. Could you imagine our modern tax codes if we payed in labour in addition to currency? How the hell would anyone track that?
It is exactly the future that I am thinking of. Implementing these changes are always most difficult at the start. It is in preparation of hard times that we should ensure that our Law system, is robust enough to manage it. Once we get the ball rolling, the projects pay out in dividends.

As to your "additional" comment,
[] [Tax] Coin only
[] [Tax] Food or coin
[] [Tax] Labour or coin
[] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
:V

You pay with what you have. Not everything.
 
Okay then, how do you pay for stuff with food?
Simple. The local government officials collect some of the extra crops grown for the the central government before giving you your regular "salary" in whatever goods your job gets. It would be similar to how Western Europe did things for quite some time. Trading in food as taxes has, up until precious metals became common enough to make more coins for everyone or until paper currency, been one of the most stable and simple tax systems historically. (Note I advocate food and coin)
 
MFW I'm halfway through the double analysis post.

Option analysis for now, a fast one to try to get in before it gets flooded off the map with votes:
[] [Law] Honour the gods
Pros:
-Reinforces social and spiritual values
Cons:
-Reduces adaptability to realities over religious tenets.

[] [Law] Maintain stability
Pros:
-Maintains Stability, Ancient China's policy
Cons:
-Reduced social innovation and risk taking may lead to calcification over time.(see Spirit Talkers)

[] [Law] Balance of interests
Pros:
-Attempts to reduce social gaps by balancing concessions and restrictions
Cons:
-Going to be the second most difficult philosophy to maintain, extremely complex as interests will shift with time.

[] [Law] Community health
Pros:
-The Law's interest is the spiritual and physical well being of the People. Likely to be the most 'moral' as players see it, and will strive to cut down on abuses the most.
-Will likely enshrine workplace standards, rules against corruption, minimum wage and environmental protection.
Cons:
-Exploitable by interests through invoking moral guardian principle. Will choke certain forms of innovations

[] [Law] Flexibility
Pros:
-Adaptable to situations, and suited for governing large regions with a law designed to be constantly updated with local clauses.
Cons:
-THE most difficult to implement. Theres a very good reason most legal codes don't change a lot, because remember, iron age communications network. Flexibility is hell to enforce when provincial laws differ and people move between provinces. Also very exploitable by interests if you can slip a bad king in.

[] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
Pros:
-Simplest to implement. Period.
Cons:
-Addresses nothing.

[] [Tax] Coin only
Pros:
-Least complex
Cons:
-Sensitive to metal supply.
-Most vulnerable to currency depreciation

[] [Tax] Food or coin
Pros:
-Second least complex
-Buffered by food supply
Cons:
-Biased towards agricultural land/against urban dwellers
-Unstable. Currency value vulnerable to both drought, improvements in productivity and metal supply. Able to resist some of either, but if multiple elements are at risk, or worse, there is an increase in agriculture productivity in one province while another suffers famine, causing the scale to skew.
--Buffer with barring the trade of food.

[] [Tax] Labour or coin
Pros:
-Most stable long term. The value of labor is quite stable overall.
Cons:
-Second most complex, applying correct valuation to labor taxes will depend upon legal philosophy(i.e. Take this with Flexibility/Balance of Interests if you want to suicide.). Taken with Balance of Interests or Community Health should ensure taxes scale with individual value.
Mixed:

[] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
Pros:
-Theoretically most flexible.
Cons:
-Liable to implode unless we choose Practicality of Enforcement. And then it's only PROBABLY won't implode.

[] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
Pros:
-Stable food supplies. Use this if you want to tax in food.
Cons:
-Economically inefficient.

[] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit

Pros:
-Maintains crisis reserve, free market takes excess.
Cons:
-This does not leave much for the free market to play with.

[] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern

Pros:
-Most flexible to circumstances.
Cons:
-Extremely fragile to famine.

[] [Heir] No, compromise is good (Mediocre Admin and Martial, Average Diplo)
[] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[] [Heir] A strong general is needed in these times (Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Excellent Martial)

Oh look a Hero.
If we fight the Trelli soon, the General is good, but the Heroic Mystic would probably be best for breaking through on the boats quickly.

Been a while since we had one, and we ARE on a megaproject spam spree.

[] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

Government upgrades are the rarest things we can get, and this lets us secure our government system by leaping an era ahead. Which is good for admin issues.

[] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot

Protection for Wildcat Prospecting.

[] [Bonus] Randomly upgrade a value

Always a good one, but we can get this via Golden Ages.

[] [Bonus] Enter Golden Age immediately

Eh, we can do this manually.

[] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)

Mystery box.

My vote:
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

One point of complexity should work out. And government upgrades are immensely valuable for administrating large tracts of land, while also being the hardest one to get.
Linked your post to mine on the front page so it won't get lost.
If anyone else has an analysis they want linked to let me know.
 
[X] [Law] Balance of interests
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
[X] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
 
It's basically a guarantee from the government to the people that you can always get a job to pay your taxes. Great for reducing unemployment, and it gives people a sort of social safety net that if things go badly, they can guaranteed still pay their taxes as long as they're able-bodied.


Designing an aqueduct is hard, maintaining it or building it as directed by a manager is a lot less so. There's a lot of stone that needs to be hauled. That's why they cost us econ (food/unskilled labor) and not Art (well, culture/tech now, representing skilled labor/artisans).
Paying people who can't do anything else is all well and good, but how would you have farmers pay in labor?

They make up 90% of our population, and most of them likely don't live close enough to an area that need an aqueduct or library built.

If they can't pay in food, and we don't really have enough coin to properly spread it for everyone to use, then how will farmers pay their taxes?
 
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
 
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
 
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