Paths of Civilization

keenscythe said:

Although hopefully we can agree on increasing the types of Coinage instead of only relying on silver and gold.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Indeed. Hopefully we could make some sort of bronze or copper coin in the future. It would devalue our currency somewhat, but it could help with the people caught in the middle of not being able to pay with either food or silver/gold coin.

[X] [Law] Practicality of enforcement

Laws must always be enforceable if not then they ultimately undermine authority.

[X] [Tax] Food or coin

Since everyone works near where they live I see no conceivable way in tracking labour without geographic administration so local oversight is almost impossible to do. Unfortunately this will cause a disproportionate amount of unskilled workers to be targeted by our laws. If someone makes the case for food, labour and coin then I'll switch.

[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial,Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)

Would prefer the martial but a mystic hero on double main trails is too good a chance to pass up.

[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit.

This option makes sure we have enough food to always have a baby boom or population explosion. We solve all our problems by throwing manpower so lets not risk it. This is a compromise that lets us keep our hold on food production but lets a free market take hold on the excess. It also incentives hardwork without punishing the poor or less well off, no Ymaryn must go to bed hungry.

[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

This speeds us up and will maybe boost our admin tech rolls anyway



Honestly I should be taking the free market option with the food or coin tax option but this is my idealism shining through. I despise lassez faire capitalism and I may have lost the guild fight but no one goes hungry.

Well, this is complicated.


[X][Law] Community health
[X][Law] Balance of interests
[X][Law] Flexibility
All three of these seem very valuable.

[X][Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
Seems like a good way to say "Overflowing econ is now more efficient."

[X][Tax] Labour or coin
@Academia Nut
Do our farmers generally have significant excess food above the tax requirement that they get coin for?
If we aren't collecting food directly as taxes, would we be buying it on our markets?
--
I think that this is effectively equivalent to a minimum wage, which is a lot better than people starving because they had a bad harvest and thus have neither coin nor food to pay the taxes. If a farmer is doing well they can just sell their food to pay us the coin (which we then use to buy our reserves). A little inefficient but it's extremely adaptable to market forces on the civilian side, so we just need to maintain large reserves on the government side (easy if we can keep our Population Explosion going)

[X][Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
Easy choice IMO, and it seems most voters agree.

[X][Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
[X][Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot
The former is a big question mark as to what it does, but will hopefully be effective. The latter is a way to make Wildcat Prospecting more locked in, though it's not guaranteed by any means (both Sacred War and Nobility in Humility were fully integrated into our slots, that didn't save them). Still, it'd open us up to being able to use our trait-stealing to observe others' traits again.

tryrar said:

Infrastructure projects and roads obviously. They'd all be counted the same. And the answer to the rest of the questions is the government. You're making this out to be waaaay more complex than it sis.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

That's because these are the inevitable arguments that will come up, because some people will feel shafted that they are getting paid the same amount to do more difficult/skilled work than other people for the same amount of labor value.

A mason building an aqueduct or a library or something should have their labor valued far higher than the people who are digging roads and pouring in gravel, because their work is much more complex and it is harder for someone to learn to do. They would be right too, and we would probably have another mid turn decision to resolve what different public works are worth, adding even more complexity to the system.

[] [Law] Balance of interests
[] [Law] Flexibility
[] [Law] Practicality of enforcement

Seem to be the obvious picks, can anyone spot some flaws with them?

[] [Law] Balance of interests
Sounds like it could lead to conflict of interest and political shenanigans

[] [Law] Flexibility
Appears to lots of loopholes as it trys to address things too broadly.

[] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
One size fits all? that is all I can see.

Whoa, guys, I'm seeing a lot of votes for food labour and coin here. Do you realize the complexity of that? Allowing people to pay in such vastly different forms leads to the questions of if you paid your taxes, then how much and in what forms, and what values relatively are those forms. What this does is it puts the onus of determining that a tax is paid on our administration, who then have to determine if each and every one of our three million people paid their taxes and in what of three forms. That is rediculous. At the least we should pick things with a hard physical value like food or coin.

That shit is complicated. Simple is good here, but we can't ignore our farmers and rural or poor population. The easiest route they have is to pay in food, and this will help us maintain our palace economy.

Let's keep it simple. Pay in material objects of some sort to make it easy to count, but pay in food or coin in order to allow for our poor or rural populations to easily manage.

[X] [Tax] Food or coin

The most important part of a law isn't that it is enforceable. And easily done, for that matter.

[X] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labor as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

Concho117 said:

@Umi-san
@Killer_Whale
Would you be willing to edit in the Highlights of any important Analysis you see into your first post beneath the Update?
It might be helpful to have all of the important Analysis displayed in one place for players who don't want to read every page.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

did that

PyrrosWarrior said:

I'm not shifting. They are paid in goods. We would have to translate the worth of those goods to get the worth of the job itself because theoretically the value of the goods is equal to the value of the job as determined by the local government
We are allowed an option for both keeping rations for emergency AND beginning to sell excess on the market. We most certainly have a use for extra food. Not to mention, we have some of the greatest agriculture in the region and are never affected by the average climate disaster. We are not likely to lose the excess thus we as the government would have plenty to feed our people AND the rest of the region's through trade.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

If we're being forced to sell food we are being forced to find a fair price for the food. It's easy enough to just reverse that and find the fair price for the stuff we're paying people in, and thus what we're paying people in. Realistically, afaik, we already know what the job is worth in order to charge them taxes. It's not like we can't just charge people a random amount if we simply can't figure it out anyways

We will lose the excess because it rots.

Going to sleep. Hope your vote loses, but glhf.

[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot

Voting for the things I'm reasonably sure about.

[X][Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X][Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X][Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

I'd rather our government pay people to work on infrastructure projects rather than conscript them.

Conscription means that we need to assess each person's talents*, finding them an appropriate task, and then getting that person to do said task. Payment, on the other hand, means that people self-select for the tasks they are suited for.

*It would be a waste to have a woman weaver working as a stonesmason, or for a stonesmason to work as a hauler.

Umi-san said:

did that

If we're being forced to sell food we are being forced to find a fair price for the food. It's easy enough to just reverse that and find the fair price for the stuff we're paying people in, and thus what we're paying people in. Realistically, afaik, we already know what the job is worth in order to charge them taxes. It's not like we can't just charge people a random amount if we simply can't figure it out anyways

We will lose the excess because it rots.

Going to sleep. Hope your vote loses, but glhf.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Most people are voting to let farmers sell excess, so we would just sell it to our neighbors/trading posts or move it to places that can't grow food as well when we have excess.

[X] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

keenscythe said:

[] [Law] Balance of interests
[] [Law] Flexibility
[] [Law] Practicality of enforcement

Seem to be the obvious picks, can anyone spot some flaws with them?

[] [Law] Balance of interests
Sounds like it could lead to conflict of interest and political shenanigans

[] [Law] Flexibility
Appears to lots of loopholes as it trys to address things too broadly.

[] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
One size fits all? that is all I can see.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

[] [Law] Balance of interests

The unspecialized option, has most of the others problems, albeit somewhat reduced

[] [Law] Flexibility

Institutionalizes reform, but makes us less stable in both the stab upkeep and cultural senses. Best long term

[] [Law] Practicality of enforcement

Buffs EJ, probably reduces stab costs in crises, but is going to be much less beneficial in every other respect, because we just can't do as much

[X] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

Let's hope we have a long time to vote, because I am now at work.

[X] [Law] Balance of interests
[X] [Law] Flexibility
We need to make it upgradeable.

[X] [Tax] Coin only
[X] [Tax] Food or coin

How the fuck do we count labour?





[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit

Why not?

[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)

[X] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot

Wildcat, when made upgradeable, will be amazing as fuck.

Umi-san said:

If we're being forced to sell food we are being forced to find a fair price for the food. It's easy enough to just reverse that and find the fair price for the stuff we're paying people in, and thus what we're paying people in. Realistically, afaik, we already know what the job is worth in order to charge them taxes. It's not like we can't just charge people a random amount if we simply can't figure it out anyways

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

We are not just selling it on OUR market though. The chapter outright talks about the possibility of selling extra food to other polities, where it would no doubt be in higher demand (and thus price) than in our state where we always have plenty of food and then some. Yes, food rots but that really doesn't matter from day-to-day business of taxes. There is a reason food was historically the way how most taxes were paid up until the last few centuries.

Academia Nut said:

New boats were getting larger and faster and some could haul large enough cargoes of bulk material to take significant amounts of food far across the sea or up river. Previously this had been impractical outside of short-term emergency resupply in times of crisis, but in times of plenty could excess food be sold like any other product?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

[X] [Law] Flexibility
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)

updating vote

[X] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

Sivantic said:

For those arguing against complexity, is this not exactly the reason we raises Stability so high? So that we can take the best option? Combine that with our Population Explosion and we have a good chance of paying any cost it would incur.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Yes, but what about the future? It isn't just now we need to worry about. We have to ensure that this law endures and can continue to be followed even in hard times. Look at it this way, can you imagine our admin problems if our first tax code was as complex as we tried to make it the last time?

This isn't a one time thing, don't treat it like it is.

And anyway, why go more complex when there is no need to? I admit our modern tax codes are very intricate, but at least we only pay in a single resource. Could you imagine our modern tax codes if we payed in labour in addition to currency? How the hell would anyone track that?

[x] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
[x] [Tax] Food or coin
[x] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[x] [Heir] No, compromise is good (Mediocre Admin and Martial, Average Diplo)
[x] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
This is my vote for now.

Any option with labour is a trap since we had quite a few updates dictating the impractically of it. Stick with the option of food and coin, it satisfies our farmers and urban class.

PyrrosWarrior said:

We are not just selling it on OUR market though. The chapter outright talks about the possibility of selling extra food to other polities, where it would no doubt be in higher demand (and thus price) than in our state where we always have plenty of food and then some. Yes, food rots but that really doesn't matter from day-to-day business of taxes. There is a reason food was historically the way how most taxes were paid up until the last few centuries.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I'm sure that, for example, the Trelli would like to have the option of simply buying food instead of having to buy slaves and them work them on farms when they could be used elsewhere.

Raichu1972 said:

That's because these are the inevitable arguments that will come up, because some people will feel shafted that they are getting paid the same amount to do more difficult/skilled work than other people for the same amount of labor value.

A mason building an aqueduct or a library or something should have their labor valued far higher than the people who are digging roads and pouring in gravel, because their work is much more complex and it is harder for someone to learn to do. They would be right too, and we would probably have another mid turn decision to resolve what different public works are worth, adding even more complexity to the system.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

If they could do valuable work then they would have the money to pay in coin. Paying in labor is for those who can't do valuable labor. It is a fall back option.

MFW I'm halfway through the double analysis post.

Option analysis for now, a fast one to try to get in before it gets flooded off the map with votes:
[] [Law] Honour the gods
Pros:
-Reinforces social and spiritual values
Cons:
-Reduces adaptability to realities over religious tenets.

[] [Law] Maintain stability
Pros:
-Maintains Stability, Ancient China's policy
Cons:
-Reduced social innovation and risk taking may lead to calcification over time.(see Spirit Talkers)

[] [Law] Balance of interests
Pros:
-Attempts to reduce social gaps by balancing concessions and restrictions
Cons:
-Going to be the second most difficult philosophy to maintain, extremely complex as interests will shift with time.

[] [Law] Community health
Pros:
-The Law's interest is the spiritual and physical well being of the People. Likely to be the most 'moral' as players see it, and will strive to cut down on abuses the most.
-Will likely enshrine workplace standards, rules against corruption, minimum wage and environmental protection.
Cons:
-Exploitable by interests through invoking moral guardian principle. Will choke certain forms of innovations

[] [Law] Flexibility
Pros:
-Adaptable to situations, and suited for governing large regions with a law designed to be constantly updated with local clauses.
Cons:
-THE most difficult to implement. Theres a very good reason most legal codes don't change a lot, because remember, iron age communications network. Flexibility is hell to enforce when provincial laws differ and people move between provinces. Also very exploitable by interests if you can slip a bad king in.

[] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
Pros:
-Simplest to implement. Period.
Cons:
-Addresses nothing.

[] [Tax] Coin only
Pros:
-Least complex
Cons:
-Sensitive to metal supply.
-Most vulnerable to currency depreciation

[] [Tax] Food or coin
Pros:
-Second least complex
-Buffered by food supply
Cons:
-Biased towards agricultural land/against urban dwellers
-Unstable. Currency value vulnerable to both drought, improvements in productivity and metal supply. Able to resist some of either, but if multiple elements are at risk, or worse, there is an increase in agriculture productivity in one province while another suffers famine, causing the scale to skew.
--Buffer with barring the trade of food.

[] [Tax] Labour or coin
Pros:
-Most stable long term. The value of labor is quite stable overall.
Cons:
-Second most complex, applying correct valuation to labor taxes will depend upon legal philosophy(i.e. Take this with Flexibility/Balance of Interests if you want to suicide.). Taken with Balance of Interests or Community Health should ensure taxes scale with individual value.
Mixed:

[] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
Pros:
-Theoretically most flexible.
Cons:
-Liable to implode unless we choose Practicality of Enforcement. And then it's only PROBABLY won't implode.

[] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
Pros:
-Stable food supplies. Use this if you want to tax in food.
Cons:
-Economically inefficient.

[] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit

Pros:
-Maintains crisis reserve, free market takes excess.
Cons:
-This does not leave much for the free market to play with.

[] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern

Pros:
-Most flexible to circumstances.
Cons:
-Extremely fragile to famine.

[] [Heir] No, compromise is good (Mediocre Admin and Martial, Average Diplo)
[] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[] [Heir] A strong general is needed in these times (Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Excellent Martial)

Oh look a Hero.
If we fight the Trelli soon, the General is good, but the Heroic Mystic would probably be best for breaking through on the boats quickly.

Been a while since we had one, and we ARE on a megaproject spam spree.

[] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

Government upgrades are the rarest things we can get, and this lets us secure our government system by leaping an era ahead. Which is good for admin issues.

[] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot

Protection for Wildcat Prospecting.

[] [Bonus] Randomly upgrade a value

Always a good one, but we can get this via Golden Ages.

[] [Bonus] Enter Golden Age immediately

Eh, we can do this manually.

[] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)

Mystery box.

My vote:
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

One point of complexity should work out. And government upgrades are immensely valuable for administrating large tracts of land, while also being the hardest one to get.