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Paths of Civilization

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I advocate for coin and food. Food would already largely have a set price on the market at any points in time, and most of our society is based on farmers so they're either elites with coin or farmers with food.
 
Choose a philosophy
So basically what reason does the laws work for.
[] [Law] Honour the gods
would give prists more power however we and the AN our the 'gods'
[] [Law] Maintain stability
Keep how things are currently going? ya no.
[] [Law] Balance of interests
interests might cut down on higher corruption but not new people.
[] [Law] Community health
oh this would cause a mess.
[] [Law] Flexibility
likely make laws easy to change for us but also stab drops all the time.
[] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
This option will effectively wipe out the 'moral' peoples wishes in the thread.
How can taxes be paid?
[] [Tax] Coin only
Easy simple but people without money be in a hellish state.
[] [Tax] Food or coin
Food is important but perishable also harder for us to keep track of
[] [Tax] Labour or coin
Labor means that we might end of practically enslaving people at times, however would likely grant bonuses to building things.
[] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
Best long term if successful, but complicated as hell.
Can food be sold?
[] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
simple prevents us from a lot of choices.
[] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
hmm, lots of ways to abuse this for all parties involved but some very interesting things could be pulled off.
[] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern
simplest option.
Change the heir?
[] [Heir] No, compromise is good (Mediocre Admin and Martial, Average Diplo)
Best current choice to keep everyone happy.
[] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
Shiny tech but otherwise shit.
[] [Heir] A strong general is needed in these times (Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Excellent Martial)
Shiny military but unless if were fighting someone soon will be useless.
Upon completion of the law, choose a bonus
[] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
IDK
[] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot
oh so tempting
[] [Bonus] Randomly upgrade a value
temping
[] [Bonus] Enter Golden Age immediately
shiny but not sure if needed
[] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
Tech bonus. tempting.

anyone else want to give a shot at analyzing?
 
[X] [Law] Honour the gods
Our gods favor peace and cooperation, exactly what I would want in a law system.

[X] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
This is incredibly complicated but hopefully because the thing I selected above isn't too complicated it means designing our laws this way isn't too hard. And this way artisans, clerks, and others who earn coin but don't have farms can pay their taxes, farmers can pay their taxes in their own goods, and refugees ( a big part of our culture) can pay taxes by being labor.

After all refugees who come to our kingdom usually have nothing with them, they can't pay taxes with coin or food so their only choice would be to work for us.

[X] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
I want to keep our food inside our kingdom to fuel the ridiculous baby booms we keep experiencing.

[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
Every single time we have had a heroic mystic king we have gotten a ridiculously good technology out of them....

I'm kind of hoping we can squeeze the technology of steel out of this guy.

[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
Let's keep on upgrading our government.

I might change things in the morning, but for now this is my vote.
 
Umi-san said:
coins started as food markers so we def do, for many. And item distribution is still job based and thus we know how their labor is valued
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Not when we have to value each and every single item. Like, how would you value someone whose taxes are based on that they normally get rations of 2 food a day, 5 clothes, and 8 hemp a day in their job? It would turn the system into a mess trying to keep up with it.
 
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
To make sure everyone can pay if need be. Also it nicely formalizes the current practice of paying someone to take over your labor.

[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit

This makes sure that the granaries remain full.

[X] [Law] Practicality of enforcement

Everything else is worse then useless if the laws are inconsistent and irrelulary enforce. That leads to corruption.

[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)

I like hero units.
 
Paying taxes in food sounds like it's seriously asking for trouble. Ultimately I think we can manage with labour and coin, given the biggest highlighted issue is our elites not being able to pay their labor in coin.
 
[X] [Bonus] Enter Golden Age immediately

Golden Age! Grab Golden Age and we have a chance of grabbing all the things!

Above all else, ensure the people that we are confident we can do this!
 
Oh god this is going to be a shitshow just like the last time we had anything tax flavored that needed being voted on.

Academia Nut said:
Choose a philosophy
[] [Law] Honour the gods
[] [Law] Maintain stability
[] [Law] Balance of interests
[] [Law] Community health
[] [Law] Flexibility
[] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
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Honour the gods is begging for getting back towards a theocracy, do not pick this.
Maintain stability risks papering over problems and squashing dissent. Sometimes we do need to go unstable just to fix something.
Practicality of enforcement was an old concern...it bears thinking about but we may finally be able to avoid taking it this time.

Academia Nut said:
How can taxes be paid?
[] [Tax] Coin only
[] [Tax] Food or coin
[] [Tax] Labour or coin
[] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
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DO NOT PICK COIN ONLY. COIN ONLY EVENTUALLY CRASHES OUR ECONOMY.
Food, labour, or coin only is basically no progress and shouldn't be picked.

Academia Nut said:
Can food be sold?
[] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
[] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern
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The third option is too free market/stupid. Food is still an important security resource. 1 v 2 is about wealth vs maintaining security by starving neighbours.

Academia Nut said:
Change the heir?
[] [Heir] No, compromise is good (Mediocre Admin and Martial, Average Diplo)
[] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[] [Heir] A strong general is needed in these times (Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Excellent Martial)
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No real horrible bad choice here. Strong general is actually okay if we get jumped by the Trelli as a pick to hedge our bets.

Academia Nut said:
Upon completion of the law, choose a bonus
[] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
[] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot
[] [Bonus] Randomly upgrade a value
[] [Bonus] Enter Golden Age immediately
[] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
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New low level social values tend to be either bad or have bad drawbacks. We're late enough in the game that we shouldn't be picking a new one up.
None of the others jump out as being actively stupid choices.

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[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

Keeping communities healthy should serve as a feeder itself to stability and other things while not focusing wholly on that.
Moving away from food as a currency and as a commodity, giving farmers and out to acquire coin if they're doing well.
I'll take the Heroic Mystic, there are some study type actions that have piled up that we can work on.
Upgrading the government tends to be pretty hard whilst tech advances do come fairly regularly. I understand the appeal of taking those or even a value upgrade since that comes basically never.
 
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
[X] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern
[X] [Heir] A strong general is needed in these times (Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Excellent Martial)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

Physiocracy, ho!
 
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The reason that I think we should tax only food and coin is primarily because AN said that around 90% of our population are farmers. That means that the majority of people can pay with food because we have amazing farming practices and basically never have any bad harvests, so food is always an option.

Those that aren't farmers likely almost all live in our True Cities, which means that they are the clerks, artisans, and oligarchs, the people who make a bunch of money. It's easiest for them to pay in coin because they don't have time to farm or do things outside of their field of work, so coin is an acceptable substitute. Plus, we have been using coins in cities already for hundreds of years, so it's an easy concept to follow. The State will also only have to keep track of two types of tax, and won't have to worry about what each labor is individually worth and if labor is worth a different amount in different places or whatever, so it doesn't add too much unneeded complexity.

I'm also against paying with labor because it would negatively impact our lower class, in that people would be encouraged to work in shitty conditions or possibly do unsavory "favors" to meet their labor quotas, and because they pay in labor they don't really get the chance to make coin and move out of their shitty conditions.
 
@Umi-san
@Killer_Whale
Would you be willing to edit in the Highlights of any important Analysis you see into your first post beneath the Update?
It might be helpful to have all of the important Analysis displayed in one place for players who don't want to read every page.
 
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This would be my gut vote, holding off until thorough discussion because taxes.
[] [Law] Community health
Helping each other out is a good thing.

[] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
Most flexibility, easiest for our people to meet, but also most complex.

[] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
Helping people = good, potentially encourages assistance of refugees.

No opinion on heir, they all have shit Admin and that's what we need most right now. If we want any decent Diplo the compromise is the way to go. Wise gives us some dope Mystic, and general gives decent Martial. It's just a matter of what we're planning on doing these next couple turns.

[] [Bonus] Randomly upgrade a value
[] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
Both of these look awesome as hell, leaning exploding tech because holy shit, we could potentially chain innovations.
 
PyrrosWarrior said:
Not when we have to value each and every single item. Like, how would you value someone whose taxes are based on that they normally get rations of 2 food a day, 5 clothes, and 8 hemp a day in their job? It would turn the system into a mess trying to keep up with it.
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Your original protestation was "how would we know what a job is worth" you're now shifting to "how would we know how much we're paying them is worth."

Go to the market, ask how many coins a meal and a shirt costs. Done.

Plus, we give everyone food and clothes as part of our social care so it's really just the hemp, extra food, dyes, etc. that are on top.

Paying in food is just going to lead to people either going hungry or paying farmers in labor. And then the government has to just accept the cow's milk, or apples in a barrel, or sack of grain or whatever that we really have no need for. Labor is better because then we just have levies to do stuff like build or maintain roads, build government ships, sort papers, carry supplies, etc.

Storage & resale not required. Value already known. Person already known.
 
One of the most effective geopolitical levers is control over food supply.

As nations become dependent upon the food producer, they will find that anyone attacking said producer threatens their own well being and prosperity.
 
Raichu1972 said:
If a person is a warrior they are almost always either a yeomen, who is a farmer and can pay with food, or a hereditary elite, which means that they have coin to spare.
Most of our artisans are already the elites and thus have coin to spare.
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Which means we can fall vulnerable to problems Rome had when they sent all their soldiers to war. leaving their fields Fallow.

I strongly suggest we come up with a solution to this problem before we run into it when have to fight Trelli and Nomad Waaghs every other turn.
 
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot
​
 
PyrrosWarrior said:
Wouldn't labour be rather difficult to put a value on? Like, I could easily see future problems popping up yet again about what job is worth what different amount for taxes
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It becomes something like minimum wage. Most people that can do more valuable work will pay with coin.

Food is likely a bad idea. Too complicated.
 
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[X] [Law] Balance of interests
[X] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] No, compromise is good (Mediocre Admin and Martial, Average Diplo)
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
 
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Going with labor means massive admin overhead, as we try to value all the complex jobs that advanced civs have, while food means we can spend our energy on maximizing farm output, which is one of, if not the most important thing until we industrialize. Neither is perfect, but one has most if it's issues addressed by our social values, or differed until we have the admin tech to deal with them, while the other means that any progress we make will generate additional admin stress.

Plus, don't tell me the thread has given up its STRONG OPINIONS ABOUT FARMING. Going labor incentives privatization of framing
 
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot
 
tryrar said:
Guys, keep in mind if we want to keep Wildcat Prospecting, we need that extra social slot due to the fact that the Hath are no longer around to provide support to it.
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With our more powerful economy and greater actions we don't need it near as much. Also our government can handle cent better now.
 
Umi-san said:
Your original protestation was "how would we know what a job is worth" you're now shifting to "how would we know how much we're paying them is worth."
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I'm not shifting. They are paid in goods. We would have to translate the worth of those goods to get the worth of the job itself because theoretically the value of the goods is equal to the value of the job as determined by the local government
Umi-san said:
Paying in food is just going to lead to people either going hungry or paying farmers in labor. And then the government has to just accept the cow's milk, or apples in a barrel, or sack of grain or whatever that we really have no need for. Labor is better because then we just have levies to do stuff like build or maintain roads, build government ships, sort papers, carry supplies, etc.
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We are allowed an option for both keeping rations for emergency AND beginning to sell excess on the market. We most certainly have a use for extra food. Not to mention, we have some of the greatest agriculture in the region and are never affected by the average climate disaster. We are not likely to lose the excess thus we as the government would have plenty to feed our people AND the rest of the region's through trade.
 
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