Epic Age I
[X][Main] The Law (Iron Age)
[X][Secondary] Proclaim Glory
[X][Secondary] Plant Hemp
[X][Free] Change Passive Policy - Defence (+1 significant walls/turn)
[X][Free] Found Colony - Change Greenshore Trading Post to a Colony

Provinces – [Main] Law x2, [Sec] Support Artisans
Policy - Redshore Aqueduct (1/6), Significant Walls (7/41)
Stallion – [Sec] New Settlement, [Sec] Art Patronage
Western – [Main] Build Wall, [Main] Survey
Greenshore – [Main] New Settlement
Gulvalley – [Main] New Settlement
Heaven's Hawk – [Main] New Settlement
Txolla – [Main] New Settlement -> To Core, [Sec] Build Walls
Tinriver – [Main] Build Dock

"What is best in life?"

"To honour the gods, till fine soil, and watch your children and trees grow tall and strong."

"Such is the way of the People, and when the People live to these ideals, the gods offer their blessings."

"Such is the way of the People."

In years past the People had considered war with their neighbours, and had resisted that impulse, choosing instead to offer their hand in friendship to the most dangerous among them, a hand that had been accepted. Reining in the worst impulses had seen to the gods rewarding the People for their prudence, resulting in the gods sending fair winds and perfect rains to the People. Fields and orchards blossomed, and the demons of plague and disease were blown away with the fair air. Fythhagyna soothed the Devourer's feathers and life took prominence over death.

Baby Boom -> Population Explosion
Ironblooded now applies, expanding 12 Econ slots per turn. If run out of Econ slots, colonies can absorb up 2 growth each per turn to reduce the risk of overcrowding. Very likely to reduce back to Baby Boom, but no penalty for doing so.

Instead of war, the great challenge of the age for the People was internal conflict and self-perfection. The king called a great council to assess the law, to go over all that had been written by the ancestors, and refine them to fit harmoniously together with the new innovations that they could not have predicted. There was also a massive library of precedent and individual exceptions that needed to actually be codified, as there had been more than one case of rulings that were made without knowledge of prior decisions that, in retrospect, would have been made better had the law reflected the full breadth of the thought about it in the law itself, rather than as a side piece. Even in seeing about condensing things down, the entirety of the law would be huge after all was said and done. Gathering together all the required parties was also going to be quite the challenge, as when it came to reframing the law there were a considerable number of interests at play. This wasn't even an issue of short-sighted greed - different groups had different interests and sometimes those interests conflicted. All groups could not be made entirely happy - compromises would have to be made. The question was where those compromises should be made. What would be the overall guiding principles of these councils and consultations?

Choose a philosophy
[] [Law] Honour the gods
[] [Law] Maintain stability
[] [Law] Balance of interests
[] [Law] Community health
[] [Law] Flexibility
[] [Law] Practicality of enforcement

And then, of course, there was the fact that a great deal of the legal code was tied up in taxes and how they should be assessed. With the introduction of currency, the old laws requiring everyone to contribute labour to the king had resulted in gigantic headaches. While those in administration theoretically already contributed all of their labour to the crown and thus didn't need to do extra, there were now huge numbers of people who did vital and important work that didn't fit into any of that, and thus in order to function many of the higher ranking individuals simply paid off unskilled labourers to do the necessary work for them. It was technically illegal, but it was so vital to function that everyone ignored it... but when the idea of 'you have to break a major law to function, and no one will call you on it' gets into people's heads, it leads down dark avenues. Corruption was of course endemic, and many called for all taxes to be switched over to be based purely on currency to simplify things to the greatest extent. While this was obviously quite popular with the urban populations and the wealthy farmers, for the vast majority of the People paying taxes in food or labour was still well favoured. There was the obvious compromise of allowing multiple forms of payment to be valid for paying taxes, but that would increase the complexity of implementing the process successfully.

How can taxes be paid?
[] [Tax] Coin only
[] [Tax] Food or coin
[] [Tax] Labour or coin
[] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin

Of course, there was also another question, and that was the sale of food. The original theory behind coins was that they represented an amount of food, but that had diverged wildly over the years. There was also the question of, if coins represented food, was it just to refuse to feed someone without coin? Further, if you could exchange coin for food, and also exchange coin for other things, could one trade food? New boats were getting larger and faster and some could haul large enough cargoes of bulk material to take significant amounts of food far across the sea or up river. Previously this had been impractical outside of short-term emergency resupply in times of crisis, but in times of plenty could excess food be sold like any other product?

Can food be sold?
[] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
[] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern

As a side discussion, the issue of the heir came up, and the fact that the current heir was another compromise candidate and a bit of a twit. Not terrible, but certainly sub-par. With everyone together, if they wanted to they could sort out a new heir. There weren't any stand-out candidates for king exactly, but the Spirit Chief of Sacred Coast had been talked about significantly lately as a brilliant mind, and many were wondering about the old tales of the wonders worked by shamans as kings. There was also another candidate in the form of a skilled War Chief from Western Wall, and while many considered the current prosperity a sign from the gods that peace was favoured, there were enough dangers that perhaps a skilled general was what the People needed for the near future.

Change the heir?
[] [Heir] No, compromise is good (Mediocre Admin and Martial, Average Diplo)
[] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[] [Heir] A strong general is needed in these times (Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Excellent Martial)

Upon completion of the law, choose a bonus
[] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
[] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot
[] [Bonus] Randomly upgrade a value
[] [Bonus] Enter Golden Age immediately
[] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)

AN: Note, I can't tell you what the stats for Classical Elective Monarchy are yet, but they are definitely better than Early Classical Elective Monarchy. Exploding rolls for the tech upgrades means that I will be rolling sequentially, and high rolls or doubles will generate additional rolls
 
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Oh my god, Academia Nut what have you done?!

*takes cover*

!Warning!

Okay people, please try to avoid locking Votes in until the Analysis people have done their work. As we found out when we did the previous Law upgrade many of the options listed above are traps that will lead to a major crisis.

Umi-San has aggregated an Analysis in his post. So has Veekie, FiniteMagician, bluefur, Necratoid, and SpecksofStardust. Please take a look before voting. Also, if you have time try to skim the Academia Nut posts later in the thread for useful information.
Adhoc vote count started by Concho117 on Jul 24, 2017 at 10:54 AM, finished with 83907 posts and 107 votes.
 
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Kinda.
We view him as a mystery that we have to unravel so it kind of encourages curiosity about the natural world.



Yeah, those were fun times.
Eventually though Academia Nut had to step in to restore order.
But I'd like to think that he secretly enjoyed it all, watching bemusedly as we spiraled down into an insanity of our own making.

E: Anyway, @Shadowhope which poem was you're favorite?

Probably Oilwhale's huge one summarizing the quest or the one mentioning polio shamans and hippie elves. That... does sum us up. But we lack pointy ears so how can we be elves??? Also we use metal- oh wait that's Dwarf Fortress Elves, never mind carry on.

It was actually a really enjoyable read through. I'm sad that I missed that lovely bit of insanity that you only see on the internet. Like, if we conducted our debates on what to do like that all the time I'm not sure if anything would get done, but it'd be sure as heck fun.

........
Also he only banned Haiku's so Limericks are still a go.
I mean, we have only just let the theater inside you know!
Why would you return to speaking normally
When you compare how fun it was formerly?
Fling open Dam-chan and let the rhymes flow!

(I'm sorry for not being sorry about that.)
 
[X] [Law] Balance of interests
[X] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
[X] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
 
Analysis

Choose a philosophy

[] [Law] Honour the gods - Pretty clearly just has people be more religious. Arguably leads to a stronger respect for our spiritual, probably social, and possibly honor values. Makes us more competitive w/ TS but not preferable for the secularists. Priests might become judges. Least likely to be chosen by us voters.
[] [Law] Maintain stability - Reduces stability loss, obviously. Makes us a bit of a police state, though, and likely increases the level of unrest/corruption necessary for the king to hear about it. Likely to be somewhat heavily focused at the enforcement level with moderate leeway given to judges. Probably will trend more toward heavier punishment.
[] [Law] Balance of interests - I.e. rich person v poor person, industrialist v worker, government v individual, native v foreigner. Most balanced choice overall, but regrettably is the easiest to sway away from its intended purpose. Likely to be more deliberative. Likely to lean toward an antagonistic system of justice.
[] [Law] Community health - Focus on societal health and the good of the many. Nice over the very long term, probably making us a more stable gov and resisting corrupt acts. Bad if those corrupt acts can be painted as being ultimately for the greater good. Bad if oppressing a group is considered necessary. Basically just all the upsides and downsides of Symphony and Greater Justice. Likely to be deliberative initially but not on a very case-by-case basis. Might be more like Japanese law.
[] [Law] Flexibility - Makes the law easier to adjust to the times. Good if we plan on rapidly developing novel products in the future. Bad if we want consistency, whether as far as social values go or as far as internal laws go. On the upside, catching problems once realized is easier w/ this choice. May depend partially on precedent/case law rather than formal written law.
[] [Law] Practicality of enforcement - Basically just asks for corruption to continue. Practicality of Enforcement essentially disallows any intense investigations and consideration of subtle aspects of an individual case.

How can taxes be paid?
[] [Tax] Coin only - Theoretically the least complicated, but causes the most reliance on metal supplies. Will benefit the cities the most initially and cause a shitton of trouble to begin with but once sufficient metal is acquired and distributed it will simplify our system immensely.
[] [Tax] Food or coin - Lets people pay in food and coin. Buffers downsides of coin out by allowing people who don't live near the cities - and thus are likely to be able to grow food - to pay in that instead. Partially cancels out the benefits of coin-only (i.e. widespread currency usage) by reducing incentive to acquire coins. Major downside to food is that it has variable value (especially w/ luxuries like wine, which depend on terroir) and is prone to spoilage. If the government prefers coin, we will need to resell the food, possibly for a lesser value. I.e., this is asking for trouble but balances out most immediate shocks.
[] [Tax] Labour or coin - Pretty much the same as above in regards to the spread of currency and buffering of shocks. IMO, labor is preferable because having taxes as food will just prompt the poor to go hungry if they don't have coins. Labor can't really rot, but utilizing it requires more oversight in the form of clerks or managers going out among the people rather than just managing food in a warehouse. Upside, though, is that no one can lose their body and we already know how much a blacksmith's time is worth vs. a farmer because we already are paying them by their job.
[] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin - Most complicated, has all of the upsides of the different systems and their downsides. Totally screws over any attempt at universality, but multipolar economies are arguably the most immune to disruptions.
Can food be sold?
[] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis - Keeps us how we are now. Reduces ability to capitolize on excess econ by turning it into wealth/diplo w/ ease.
[] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit - Makes sure that we possess enough to feed everyone, but still allows us to trade away econ. Limits our ability to do the latter freely, however, which will probably be irritating at some point in the future.
[] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern - We can freely trade away food up until ~0, but exposes us to the risk of trading away food until 0. Pushes a bit toward a free market as the crown is basically saying "we'll take care of this, you take care of yourself."
Change the heir?
[] [Heir] No, compromise is good (Mediocre Admin and Martial, Average Diplo) - Literally the most boring option but everyone is pretty happy with it, because that is pretty much the only upside.
[] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic) - Gives us some nice tech growth, but moderately bad otherwise. Not *super* bad, though. Only martial is worse than the other two have, and if all of the stats are summed this pick has higher than the other two due to the sheer strength of that heroic mystic.
[] [Heir] A strong general is needed in these times (Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Excellent Martial) - Good if we expect war on the horizon, which tbh we do. But not heroic, and we all love dem mystic heroes.

Upon completion of the law, choose a bonus
[] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy - Gives us that good old government upgrade shit. Probably can be gained by other means, but is pretty nice.
[] [Bonus] Gain new Social Value slot - Lets us keep Wildcat Prospecting and fish for a new value from our neighbors. Depends 100% on if you like WC or not. We can probably get this through a golden age.
[] [Bonus] Randomly upgrade a value - Upgrades one of our values which, let's be honest, have an even bigger impact on our civilization than our government does. This can probably be gotten through a golden age, however.
[] [Bonus] Enter Golden Age immediately - Why would you vote for this? We can get it by just hitting 3 stability (takes a secondary) and getting max in 2 stats (hello +12 econ per turn) and then sitting there for a full turn. If you pick this you should feel ashamed.
[] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls) - Technology is literally the bomb. Haha, punny. But seriously technology is radically awesome. ESPECIALLY admin and social based technology which are far, far, far, far, farx1000000 harder to get than materials and martial tech, mostly because we just understand which actions will get us them. Pick this if you're not picking gov.



Personal Preferences
[] [Law] Balance of interests

[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Labour or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

[X] [Bonus] Randomly upgrade a value
[X] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)

Can't really decide between these two for law.
Balance of Interests is obviously, well, balanced. But it's easier to imbalance as one side grows stronger. Community health is kind of better societally but is rather vague and might work to further suppress individuals. I think I like it more, though.

Labour or coin so that the penniless can pay in labor. Paying in food just sounds weird to me.

As long as we ourselves have food, there's nothing wrong with selling it. Other than that it might impact our ability to hit and maintain Baby Booms, that is.

Mystic Hero ftw.

Torn between the government upgrade (useful), value upgrade (potentially more useful) and the tech upgrade (potentially the most useful, but highly roll dependent). Probably the gov upgrade will win. >.>
 
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[] [Law] Honour the gods
[] [Law] Maintain stability
[] [Law] Balance of interests
[] [Law] Community health
[] [Law] Flexibility
[] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
[X] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

Not voting for any of the law choices until everyone has had their say, cuz this looks a salt mine big enough to make boats tame.
 
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[X] [Law] Balance of interests
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
[X] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
 
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] No, compromise is good (Mediocre Admin and Martial, Average Diplo)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

I wish we could go community health without opening up to even more corruption. The odds are against it.
 
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Baby Boom -> Population Explosion
Ironblooded now applies, expanding 12 Econ slots per turn. If run out of Econ slots, colonies can absorb up 2 growth each per turn to reduce the risk of overcrowding. Very likely to reduce back to Baby Boom, but no penalty for doing so.

This is Actually Insane!

We could do the Dam in one turn from population explosion alone!
 
[X] [Law] Balance of interests
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
 
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No! I'm ninja'ed by @Academia Nut!

[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Enter Golden Age immediately
 
[X] [Law] Flexibility
[X] [Tax] Food, labour, or coin
[X] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy

Flexibility means the laws will be more responsive to changing conditions, and Classical Elective Monarchy means that our government will be more responsive as well.

Also, note that we have both Econ and Wealth maxed out, and Stability 3. We can get a Golden Age without expending our Law completion bonus on it.
 
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Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Killer_Whale on Jul 24, 2017 at 2:02 AM, finished with 83409 posts and 8 votes.
 
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