- Location
- Staring into the void
I like this.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
I like this.
Finite Magician
Working within limits
- Location
- World's End
Can we take a step back and look at the situation here?
The Trelli is a trading hub. While we are a major Tin exporter, we are not the only one. The denial of resources would provide a disruption, but trade can be regulated and their exports to Khem would simply lessen to maintain a viable supply of bronze towards their pirates. The Khem would be displeased, sure, but they wouldn't begin attack the Trelli solely due to that. In other words, the conflict would plausibly be drawn out.
Building a trading post with the explicit purpose of denying them said resources paints a big target on the trading post which we would have difficulty sending support to is another issue we fail to address. We have mercenaries. So do they. In terms of logistics, they have the upper hand over us. This is all without taking into consideration the pressure they would put on our sea routes as they raid us to their heart's content.
TLDR; This is an opportunity but we do not hold any advantage over the Trelli nor would they be inclined towards a short war or play nice with us. The dice would decide our fate and I rather not put the Ymaryn's fate in its hands.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'll comment on this, first by saying that I actually agree with both of you, and second by saying that in a lot of ways I see this as us giving a firm warning.
At least that is how I see it, an act of aggression to get them to stop something we think will escalate badly. That's my reasoning I want to add to this.
Carry on.
You just named one, so the fact that you have to make an exception is already telling.
- Spirit Talkers
- Metal Workers
- Sea Tribe (Could have raided us for food instead of asking us for food)
- Any group of minors ever
- Xoh (We took a swing at them)
- Nomads
- Swamp People
- Thunder Horse
So no, this line of reasoning is failed within this very quest. It's also like claiming they'll go to war with the Saffron Isles or Khemetri. They're their trading partners.
Raiding us goes decidedly against their interests, since that means several turns where they stop trading with one of their three primary trade partners.
I'm not the thread. I don't feel the need to justify a war that will gain us a significant amount of power or strength, but this war is avoidable and I'd personally prefer not to do it while we have so many internal problems to deal with, just like I would have preferred not to deal with the lowlands war while we were building our last megaproject. So you don't have to tell me all of the advantages we'd get from doing this war, or claim it's morally correct. I acknowledge those stances and admit that we stand to gain quite a bit for little effort at this time.
However, they do have better war boats, and it won't be free. I do not want to waste time getting involved in this at this moment in time. I'd be totally down with doing this otherwise, while rolling my eyes at what this thread is saying to justify going into yet another unnecessary war.
Push comes to shove we can Waagh them into oblivion, or at least abject surrender.
Like so:
Main War mission x2
Kickx2
Free Offense
Secondary Terrify
We would literally drown them in men and boats. They do not have the resources to fight a fully committed Ymaryn hegemony.
I don't think we would have to raze them, no - though I find it plausible that too many empty threats might degrade our ability use the Threaten action.
I am perfectly happy to plop a trading post there - we want to curtail Trelli dominance in the area, and it is perfectly justified on our front with the latest direction their actions have taken. I'm just saying that despite all this, it is inviting war, and if it comes to war we shouldn't feel like we have the moral high ground just because we weren't the first to start the actual fighting.I'll comment on this, first by saying that I actually agree with both of you, and second by saying that in a lot of ways I see this as us giving a firm warning.
At least that is how I see it, an act of aggression to get them to stop something we think will escalate badly. That's my reasoning I want to add to this.
Carry on.
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Has to be before. It's a prereq.
...but we aren't starting a war.
Look at the argument, circular logic is in play here:
-If being their biggest trade partner prevents war
--Then the West Trade Post will prevent war, because we would be an even MORE important trade partner.
-If being their biggest trade partner does not prevent war
--Then the West Trade Post will trigger war, because they need the tin to finance the war.
---But taking and KEEPING the West Trade Post will deny them the ability to wage war on us. Preventing war.
Well, in that case it's Dice God Poopyhead, so just be glad it's not worse?
Maybe. Remember the question marks.
Yep.
Can we agree that we should be focusing the Megaproject if nothing urgent comes up, though?
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Uhuh! Exactly! I completely agree with you.
Morality is not coming into this much for me, since we don't have much to stand on there, so I apologize if you got that impression from me and you felt irked/annoyed/something else negative and thus pointed out the high ground thing.
- Location
- Central Europe
IMO taking the western trade post is a clear provocation and threat to the Trelli. I would be very surprised if we don't find ourselves at war next turn after this option wins. A war that will prevent us from quickly finishing the Palace, so I am voting for East.
That said conflict with the Trelli is probably only a question of time. If we manage to take and hold the "tin-river" mouth, then we are in a very good position opposite them.
That said conflict with the Trelli is probably only a question of time. If we manage to take and hold the "tin-river" mouth, then we are in a very good position opposite them.
Nah; nothing like that. Just wanted to clarify my previous position to extend on what you said. I certainly didn't have any negative impressions from your posts.
Finite Magician
Working within limits
- Location
- World's End
I have no doubt that in the long run we would be victorious (as one True City VS the Ymaryn hegemony would imply) but we are not the only player in this game. The Highlanders and Thunder Speakers would gladly pile on us if they sense weakness. There is simply no pressing need to provoke an otherwise neutral party spawning pirates as said pirates out-tech us on sea. I see it a better choice to defend to the best of our ability, straighten our infrastructure and expand towards them till we can knock on their door and ask them to kindly stop spawning pirates. Alternatively, we take over the lowlands and gain enough clout to force them to stop.
Well. Even if the war starts (which it very well might), we could probably get away with sending just a secondary war mission - and we can do that without disrupting our Megaproject Surge.
Unlikely. The Trelli are not something to be underestimated and what they'll likely do is pay all the local tribes to make trouble for us.
It will greatly increase the amount of pirates and maybe even bandits, and we are completely inexperienced in ship to ship combat, not to mention none of our guys nearby have the experience of fighting serious wars. This will be a serious threat that we'll have to at least devote a main to. We're likely to win due to distance and the defensive nature of most of the places they could raid, but they are outsourcing their military so you shouldn't consider it just a city state we're up against.
There is also likely to be a period of time where trade is cut off.
[X] [Exp] Found Mercenary Company
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[X] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)
To explain my latest vote. I think veekie's argument for the western trading post is convincing, and I wouldn't mind if it wins - but other people have made a valid point that it is asking for trouble when we have other things to worry about. In light of this, I'm going to go for a compromise; we wait on founding the trading post for 1-2 turns, but get a second mercenary company up and going to give us the force projection we need to deal with the issue once we decide to do so.
Still voting for boats, since we apparently need to uptech if we are going to be doing any sort of naval warfare.
And finally, the Party is the obvious choice for boosting our stability towards hopefully reaching our golden age.
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[X] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)
To explain my latest vote. I think veekie's argument for the western trading post is convincing, and I wouldn't mind if it wins - but other people have made a valid point that it is asking for trouble when we have other things to worry about. In light of this, I'm going to go for a compromise; we wait on founding the trading post for 1-2 turns, but get a second mercenary company up and going to give us the force projection we need to deal with the issue once we decide to do so.
Still voting for boats, since we apparently need to uptech if we are going to be doing any sort of naval warfare.
And finally, the Party is the obvious choice for boosting our stability towards hopefully reaching our golden age.
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[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[X] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)
Could we get the pine trees by sending trade mission up north? Our traders know that the priests would love to have even more plant species to mess around with and would absolutely collect as many seeds as practical. It wouldn't give us a reliable access to the tradegoods up there, but the trees are just as good for us.
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[X] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)
Could we get the pine trees by sending trade mission up north? Our traders know that the priests would love to have even more plant species to mess around with and would absolutely collect as many seeds as practical. It wouldn't give us a reliable access to the tradegoods up there, but the trees are just as good for us.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
@veekie
Your absolutely right that bulk shipping of timber is centuries away from developing. However we don't need to ship it.
The north post would be on the river, and the Russian riverine network is both deep, flat and Interconnected. This means that we can do what historical riverine societies did. Float the logs down the river. This is a development that won't take long to occur.
And if we develop more river posts or better infrastructure in our crimean province, We can have waystations and storage areas along the river as well as workshops and Mills for processing the wood before shipping to redshore for the shipyards and workshops of the South.
Your absolutely right that bulk shipping of timber is centuries away from developing. However we don't need to ship it.
The north post would be on the river, and the Russian riverine network is both deep, flat and Interconnected. This means that we can do what historical riverine societies did. Float the logs down the river. This is a development that won't take long to occur.
And if we develop more river posts or better infrastructure in our crimean province, We can have waystations and storage areas along the river as well as workshops and Mills for processing the wood before shipping to redshore for the shipyards and workshops of the South.
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pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Umm. We literally had to send our shaman king to go defend us from their spiritual nonsense. They took a swing, lost, and died.
- Metalworkers merged with some nomads and took a swing a while back.
- Sea tribe were the Hathatyn. Our war with them was fairly dubious on our part, but they had also pretty much just collapsed.
- That's just being pedantic. The minors don't even have their own actions.
- The Xoh ... actually, you might be right, here.
I'll also remind you that Phygrif kind of did all of that shit on his own. We picked him thinking he would probably pass away soon enough and wouldn't get much done. A lame duck, essentially. He turned out to be an asshole.
... Actually, I need to point out that this is false.
Remember whatever that polity HatRiver-lands used to be part of? We used to have some ancient naval raiding going on there, if I remember right.
That being said, none of the current creews have experience on that front, I admit.
Note the Terrify action:
Terrify - You've killed cities, walls will not keep your enemies safe
*M: -3 Diplo, can force minors to become vassals or integrate, can cause major civilizations to lose Stability
Special: Not applicable to nomads, efficiency greatly improved by performing a War Mission against the target the same turn
Warning: Crit fails can cause backlash, losing Stability
So a Terrify can have a few outcomes.
Terrify + War Mission
-Success(likely) - Vassalize, integrate or lose Stability.
-Failure(less likely) - Use the War Mission on them after they call your bluff
-Crit failure(unlikely) - Your own people object to terrorism.
Terrify alone
-Success(less likely) - Vassalize, integrate or lose Stability.
-Failure(more likely) - Look weak, just lose the diplomacy
-Crit failure(likely) - Your own people object to threatening people.
That would be true if they didn't just switch to a Mercenary based military to increase their force projection ability.
A Mercenary based military would take SERIOUS bleed mobilizing against a major trade partner, because their Trade Dominance is going to go down when we stop trading with them, and their mercenaries are paid by their trade dominances.
They must win fast to claim the trade or not fight at all as a result.
Possible outcomes:
-West Trade post + No War
--They accept that Ymaryn traders are as good a source of Tin as the Tin Hills, and must curtail raids on Ymaryn traders if they want to keep it. Ymaryn meanwhile are perfectly happy to sell them the tin and bronze. It's not like we need them!
-West Trade post + Piracy(deniable)
--They don't like this and turn the pirates loose in our waters, without actually attacking us directly. We get to either play whack a mole with pirate hunting ships, diplomatically demand that they help us 'fight piracy or the Tin gets it' or turtle up in ship convoys(which we COULD even lash longships together) that are too hard to raid.
-West Trade post + War
--They consider Ymaryn control of Tin to be an unacceptable threat and attacks the West Trade Post.
---If they send 1 Company, they're going to meet the Red Banner and get chewed up on quality differences
---If they send more Companies, this will be stickier, and more dependent on rolls, but for the duration of the war the Trelli will be counting down how long before they need to white peace out because they're burning money fast, the more companies committed, the more expensive it is. This will be determined by how our boat R&D catches up to theirs, noting that we have a fair sized advantage from love of wisdom and extensive forests.
----If they are still at it 3 turns in we'd probably roll an army up to their walls with battering rams.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
This is the dawning of a new age!
- Location
- Philippines
Um no what happened is actually quite reminescent of right now
the ST were converting and diplomancing nomads so in fear we decided to sabotage them resulting in their colapse history now repeats itself the trelli are now diploing there tribes to fight for them and our reaction is the same as back then sabotage them.
