Paths of Civilization

DragonParadox · Jul 9, 2017

Romv said:
What reason could Valleyhome of all places have to want a civil war?

The fact that it is being supplanted as the seat of political and economic power. That's a lot of revenue and prestige lost.

Romv · Jul 9, 2017

DragonParadox said:
The fact that it is being supplanted as the seat of political and economic power. That's a lot of revenue and prestige lost.

Political, sure. Economic, not necessarily. And they're going to attack Redshore? This is just weird.

tryrar · Jul 9, 2017

Therealtahu said:
1. It also helps more in the short term by being closer to the current periphery states.
2. We don't want to expand into the lowlands right now. It has negative synergies with Divine Steward.
3. We need to go into an infrastructure phase later to build up enough for both the North and the South anyways. This isn't that big of a deal.

Actually, it's farther from the lowlands, which is just about our LARGEST periphery state, and the one that needs the most oversight since they're not from our culture. And while we don't want to EXPAND them, we still want to KEEP them due to said con from DS, so unless we get a chance to release them peacefully we're stuck with them. And while it's not that big of a deal to build up the infrastructure, it's something we can't afford to do within the next 3-4 turns, and AN has specifically said that Redshore would become a True City anyways, through overcrowding, if we made it a capital and failed to quickly install an aquaduct.

PrimalShadow · Jul 9, 2017

Academia Nut said:
Yes.

Probably. I might try to mock up a design once the number of annexes has been finalized, but it will really depend on what new annexes are being added. Expanding the Great Hall or Gardens will require considerable renovation as they take up a lot of space, and the Great Hall especially needs to be continuous. Others you can just add on a new building where you can make room, for the most part anyway.

Hmm. I was previously opposed to a Great Hall expansion, but with this in mind, I guess I'm okay with it. Though I'm also okay with NOT having it; honestly, we are building the palace as an administrative far more than a diplomacy aid, and if we did choose to expand it in the future we would have more than enough to do with putting in Gardens/Arsenal/Shrine2/Library3.

McLuvin · Jul 9, 2017

Therealtahu said:
1. It also helps more in the short term by being closer to the current periphery states.
2. We don't want to expand into the lowlands right now. It has negative synergies with Divine Steward.
3. We need to go into an infrastructure phase later to build up enough for both the North and the South anyways. This isn't that big of a deal.

1. Still forgetting the Lowlands mate, and also ignoring the fact that one upside vs the fact we need speed and the cost of aqueducts far outweighs that
2. We are already in the Lowlands mate, no arguments about it now and we are having some major issues with them already, as you said Divine Stewards is a factor here and we cannot afford to lose the Lowlands without a cascade collapse occurring, choosing the capitol furthest away from a major area in need of administration and an area of likely military action is pretty counterproductive, even more so than losing out on the ease of access for everyone else via Redshore
3. Actually it is, because Aquaducts and other issues choosing Redshore would cause will delay that infrastructure phase quite a lot, thus helping increase the divide more than not choosing Redshore. Overall choosing Redshore just makes this point shoot you in the foot mate

DragonParadox · Jul 9, 2017

Romv said:
Political, sure. Economic, not necessarily. And they're going to attack Redshore? This is just weird.

That has happened many times in history. That shinny palace can't supplant them if it is burned to the ground. Sure it;s stupid and myopic, but local partizan interests often are.

Academia Nut · Jul 9, 2017

Abby Normal said:
...When does the additional penalty to centralization tolerance take place?

After completion but before finalization of all the details.

PrimalShadow · Jul 9, 2017

Actually. For people voting for the Great Hall expansion and/or the Storehouse, can anyone explain their reasoning? Because I like admin bonuses, but I'm not convinced the ones there are worth it.

bluefur87 · Jul 9, 2017

Oooh, fun update. Will read updates, but I want to state the one thing I am confident about. Not that it seems to be too contentious based on the Tally.

The palace location should definitely be Valleyhome. One of the major considerations we have to have is how easy it would be to invade the palace, and putting the palace by the sea greatly increases the ease at which it can be raided.

Now then, time to slowly read up.

McLuvin · Jul 9, 2017

PrimalShadow said:
Actually. For people voting for the Great Hall expansion and/or the Storehouse, can anyone explain their reasoning? Because I like admin bonuses, but I'm not convinced the ones there are worth it.

Because any Admin boost is needed at the moment, literally any chance to increase our Admin is welcome

Candesce · Jul 9, 2017

tryrar said:
AN has specifically said that Redshore would become a True City anyways, through overcrowding, if we made it a capital and failed to quickly install an aquaduct.

Ugh. No making True Cities with no aqueducts.

That pretty much sets where the Palace needs to go, for me.

[X][Loc] Valleyhome

[X] Shrine
[X] Library
[X] Library x2

The Sandman · Jul 9, 2017

PrimalShadow said:
Hmm. I was previously opposed to a Great Hall expansion, but with this in mind, I guess I'm okay with it. Though I'm also okay with NOT having it; honestly, we are building the palace as an administrative far more than a diplomacy aid, and if we did choose to expand it in the future we would have more than enough to do with putting in Gardens/Arsenal/Shrine2/Library3.

I'm thinking of the Great Hall as the place where the provincial governors meet with the King, where the Council holds full sessions, where precedent-setting trials are held, and so on and so forth. It's not just where we entertain diplomats, it's also where the highest-rank administrative events happen. Think of it as the Senate floor or what have you.

Abby Normal · Jul 9, 2017

Academia Nut said:
After completion but before finalization of all the details.

How dangerous does our admin advisor think that that period of time with an extra true city penalty would be?
Also, can you answer these questions please:

Abby Normal said:
Will that prevent or make it more expensive/less effective to add or expand those via extended project?

Abby Normal said:
Art 9 -> 7:
9 - 2 (Palace) + 1 (Carrions) + 1 (Blackbirds) = 9 - 2 (???)
Hmm... @Academia Nut did you forget the art from the blackbirds and carrions, or did i miss something?

Romv · Jul 9, 2017

DragonParadox said:
That has happened many times in history. That shinny palace can't supplant them if it is burned to the ground. Sure it;s stupid and myopic, but local partizan interests often are.

That sounds interesting, can you give me an example?

PrimalShadow · Jul 9, 2017

The Sandman said:
I'm thinking of the Great Hall as the place where the provincial governors meet with the King, where the Council holds full sessions, where precedent-setting trials are held, and so on and so forth. It's not just where we entertain diplomats, it's also where the highest-rank administrative events happen. Think of it as the Senate floor or what have you.

I don't think we need more space for those things than we already have by default, though?

ETA50M · Jul 9, 2017

McLuvin said:
In the extreme long term.

I put a little emphasis on the most important part

DragonParadox said:
Or it could be that our advisors are short sighted and do not see the administrative and political calamity in the making for the minor transportation advantage.

Our advisors? AN explicitly said it pays off better in the longterm and in story its our provinces pushing for it not our advisors.

The Sandman · Jul 9, 2017

PrimalShadow said:
I don't think we need more space for those things than we already have by default, though?

Think of it as a bit of future-proofing. Plus room for the scribes, advisors, and even general observers of the proceedings.

DocMatoi · Jul 9, 2017

We need gardens, they take up space so If they're happening, they happen now

Kiba · Jul 9, 2017

The Sandman said:
Think of it as a bit of future-proofing. Plus room for the scribes, advisors, and even general observers of the proceedings.

We need to prioritize survival, not getting shinnies. The bare minimum annexes please.

DragonParadox · Jul 9, 2017

ETA50M said:
Our advisors? AN explicitly said it pays off better in the longterm and in story its our provinces pushing for it not our advisors.

And the provinces can't possibility be shirt-sighted or foolish, right? It's convenient for them, it's also setting up another geographic cleavage to add to the existing ones. pass.

maximillian · Jul 9, 2017

maximillian said:
In feudalism, no one had concentrated power.
The stereo typical all powerful feudal Lord was a myth. It wasn't until the rise of the modern state and the second serfdom that this myth gained degrees of truth.

The powers of the state, all of them, where split and divided across the populace.
Feudalism was a constant negotiation between the rulers and subject from King and going down to the simplest peasant. Each person or specification or entity held certain obligations, rights and privileges, and those where constantly renegotiated. This coupled with the near absolute decentralisation meant that power over subordinates existed and was exercised solely by thier consent*,and there was a monolithic twisting tangled ladder of Subordinate and master starting from sharecropper and his landlord going all the way to King and his dukes.

Those with powers were extremely limited in both the range and capability of thier powers, as they had to negotiate for it*.

*usually in a "court of law", leveraging existing laws, obligations, traditions, wealth and influence or plain force of arms.

The obvious systemic flaw is that succesive successful negotiations can outright strip an entity of all powers, and that is absolutely true and it's how both serfdom and the rise of the modern state occurred. But that was a development that took a very long time to occur, and was very much a change of system rather than the system working as intended.

A bit late for this rant mate.

McLuvin · Jul 9, 2017

ETA50M said:
better in the longterm

Missing a word here a pretty important one....

Oh yeah, extreme.

What's the use in causing all these short to mid term issues when we are already in crisis, if we don't even survive to the extreme long term to get the benefits what's the point in trying to get there?

Katsuragi · Jul 9, 2017

[X][Loc] Valleyhome

[X] Great Hall Expansion
[X] Great Hall Expansion x2
[X] Shrine
[X] Library
[X] Gardens
[X] Storehouse
[X] Storehouse x2
[X] Arsenal

Umi-san · Jul 9, 2017

maximillian said:
A bit late for this rant mate.

did you just quote yourself

Abby Normal · Jul 9, 2017

DocMatoi said:
We need gardens, they take up space so If they're happening, they happen now

While AN hasn't responded to my clarification question on that yet, i'll note that his comment about gardens and halls taking up space and requiring more reworking of things to change later was in response to a question about aesthetics, not expense or effectiveness. I'm pretty sure the additional problems are covered under the doubled resource cost of adding annexes later:

Academia Nut said:
You can build further annexes later, but at 2 Econ and 2 Art per annex.

(though i'm well aware i could be wrong, hence me asking for clarification earlier

)

Paths of Civilization

A Memory of TREES

So Zetta Slowpoke

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

A Memory of TREES

So Zetta Slowpoke

Theoretical Lover of Girls

Civilised Sheep

The 1%

Procrastinating.

High Clerk of the Ymaryn