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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
 
i think Cosmopolitan Acceptance is in someways killing us in action economy and we either need to upgrade it or get rid of it and i am voting to upgrade
 
Carrnage said:
the two at real risk are Honourable Death and Symphony, while i wouldn't mind losing honourable death Losing Symphony would be a massive blow to our society so if we do the debates i believe we need to do something to reinforce Symphony.
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The one most likely to go is probably honourable death remember symphony is the trait our very laws are based on symphony is the spirit of the law and said spirit us what we are trying to shove down the lowlands throats on the other hand I would not mind losing honourable death for greater good.
 
DocMatoi said:
thats... kinda self evident dude, The trait is "accept the ways of foreigners." The action was "these ways are repugnant, so we will destroy them"
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By that logic, you should be tremendously opposed to any attempt to integrate the Stallion Tribes or change the Lowlanders.

Cosmopolitan Acceptance means we don't murder or hate the foreigner for being foreign. We can still attack them if their actions are despicable to us, which is what happened.
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [React] Main Survey
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)

These are my "certain"s. Festival us just bad compared to Survey->Enforce Justice. We have at least 1 forest slot from our actions. We possibly have more from the Western Wall province, and if we do integrate the Stallions we'll have like 4 or 5 more.

And narratively, I absolutely do not want a Free City. It's just asking for trouble, creating a semi-independent entity in the middle of our core territories. Plus it's only 1 econ per turn and 1 Cent maximum. Those are both very small. We just need to Survey->Wildcat some more.

[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
These are all pretty reasonable options.

[X] [RB] Deploy north to guard against nomads
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
I'm not sure which of these to vote for, but I really don't want them fighting the swamp people and we can definitely be using them right now. So I'm approval-voting all of them.

[X][React] Main Expand Econ
And finally, a strategic vote because Annual Festival just is not what we want to do when we're losing wealth every turn (-0 to -2 per turn during the crisis), and its hilariously inefficient compared to Wildcat->Justice. The debating also has a chance of bringing back Greater Good, which means we'll want lots of econ to throw into the fire.

Manget said:
i think Cosmopolitan Acceptance is in someways killing us in action economy and we either need to upgrade it or get rid of it and i am voting to upgrade
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-0.5 Stab for +2 Econ is a perfectly reasonable trade. It's bigger options that suck. For reference:
Code: 
       econ/stability=value
        2   /0.5= 4x
(4-5) = 4.5 /1.5= 3x
(6-8) = 7   /2.5= 2.8x
(9-11)= 10  /3.5= 2.857x
(11-14)=12.5/4.5= 2.77x
 
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tryrar said:
.....where in the narrative have we had proof what you're claiming has happened? You see, this is my biggest objection to this genocide line of reasoning. You're claiming because we sacked an enemy city we're totally going to loose one of our most developed traits unless we go for max stability hits as penance. Please show proof such a line is needed.
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The GM said it is "not doing so good" so i'm voting for 1 step above minimum, hardly max. Please stop strawmaning.
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
I admit to skimming somewhat to keep up since the update, but what was the argument for giving the Lowlands Black Soil? Especially as it is a particularly slavery reinforcing tech, which we invented the Half-exile tech to bypass?

No real problems with the other leaders (except they mostly aren't my preferred choices, but whatevs the thread does as it wills) but the Black soil seems a little out of the way for most. Is it because it is such an old tech we don't mind losing the edge it gives the People?
 
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*pokes into thread after mucking about in GIMP*

Hmm...

Nothing of significance.

*wanders away*
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
Okay, that was an interesting time while I was out to lunch.

How to deal with foreign gods?
[] [RA] Stamp down on all of this (-2 Stability, +2 Religious Authority)

Simple solution. Trades off the risk of acquiring foreign values in exchange for taking a hit to our Love of Wisdom value(because going No U is pushing against) and Symphony value.

[] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

Pits our Mysticism against theirs. I'm reasonably confident that we have an advantage here, though Honorable Death is probably the most vulnerable to displacement here.

[] [RA] The correct gods will make themselves known (-1 Religious Authority, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

Let things take the natural course...this actually advantages THEM long term. Our values are provable, theirs are mainly the 'self evident' beliefs declared with great conviction.


How to deal with the lowlanders? (Pick as many as you like)
Lets see, overall here, each demand should be matched with a boon. The higher Stability cost the bigger the boon.

[] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)

Necessary. This is essential to converting their culture.
Take.

[] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)

Strikes a blow against their religious values, but also strikes a blow against Symphony and Cosmopolitan Acceptance by violent rejection of foreign views.
Pass

[] [Low] Restrict right to wage war to defensive only (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)

USEFUL to avoid them expanding past what we can manage, which is a real risk here. Unchecked wars of expansion can destroy us because of Divine Stewards.
Variable. At present it's a tough sell, they THINK they're going to die if they don't grab as much as they can.

[] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)

Valuable, it cuts the demands of conquest, quashes disease, and definitely shows our gods know what they are doing.
Take.

[] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)

Valuable, it cuts the demands for crude manual labor, kicking their slavery in the balls. Mills transition a lot of labor from unskilled to skilled, and as such we should encourage it.
More importantly the other lowlanders will find it hard to copy. It takes a lot of wood and skilled labor to make mills.

[] [Low] Permit their use of iron tools (Allows iron tools to be traded to vassal)

NOPE. Going to leak like a sieve at present. Transfer iron to them once they prove they can play ball and once they can actually hold their land.

[] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)

This helps directly erode their culture by adding more of our dudes, but too costly. Pass.

War Goals for Highlanders
[] [High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)
[] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)

Quick end to the war. I think Extra Tribute is worth it, because we'd need the wealth to pay for taxes, AND it also makes them in a worse position to try further shit on us.

[] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
[] [High] Subjugate (+5 Prestige, +5 Wealth, gain new vassal, unlikely to complete this turn)

Further war commitment, further militarization, further administrative overreach. Ehhh.
Subjugation is a LOT worse than demand territory, it adds a second divergent culture to contain.

Deploy the Red Banner
[] [RB] Remain at rest

Keeps them ready to respond and resocialize them.

[] [RB] Deploy north to guard against nomads

Paranoia option. TBH the Hawks and Stallions got this covered.

[] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome

Continues resocialization. Recommended if we take one of the landgrabs

[] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley

Flanks the Highlanders. Recommended if we want to vassalize them entirely.

[] [RB] Deploy to assist vassal against the Swamp Folk

Disabuses the Swamp Folk from having another go. Sigh.

Trouble's brewing, how to prepare?
[] [React] Main Expand Econ

Going to need this or a bigger refugee drain if we want provinces to take any actions next turn on policy. We'd have 5 Econ to work with otherwise.

[] [React] Main Build Mills

Trades Wealth(which the Mills will eat) into long term Econ, but the Tax crisis will make this hazardous.

[] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival

This should help with the Debates, as we propagate our legends, while the added Stability lets us take more refugees or tank the tax crisis better.

[] [React] Main Expand Forests

Builds long term econ. Opens room for developing surveyed grounds.

[] [React] Main Survey

Don't have the forests to use anything it frees up.

You're having trouble with the management of cities, make Sacred Forest a Free City?
[] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[] [City] No

We could use the Centralization, but it'd make things even MORE complicated and further tighten the Econ margins. Pass.

Everyone else isn't coping with the weather well
[] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)

Focus on our internal issues.
Avoid adding a whole bunch of refugees while we're dealing with religious debate.

[] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)

Extra piggybank.

[] [Refugee] Encourage people to abandon their homes for you territory (-2 Stab, potential further loss, +6-8 Econ)

This will damage our neighbors, particularly the HK and the TS, reducing their ability to make war on us.

[] [Refugee] Let everyone know that your environment is stable (-3 Stab, potential further loss, +9-11 Econ, ???)

This will have a nonzero chance to shatter the Highlanders, which will trigger a second influx. It'd probably stop the fighting for a while though!

[] [Refugee] Bring in absolutely everyone you can (-4 Stab, potential further loss, +11-14 Econ, overcrowding, ???)

*Pours oil on self, sets fire*
Well, on the plus side nobody but the Swamp Folk would be doing any fighting for a while.


My vote:
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)

Force them to obey our laws properly, and give them the incentive to back it up. Once they obey our laws(and probably grab a chunk of the river), we can start pushing them towards full assimilation
I don't quite want a crackdown, it undermines the narrative of Cosmopolitan Acceptance believing that other cultures may be wrong on some things, but they still have values worth considering.

Highlander is a little more controversial, but the purpose of attacking from Hatvalley with the Red Banner is that we can seize the Highlanders copper and tin mines there(which they took from Former Hathatyn), which means they won't have bronze anymore.

This will end the Highlanders as a threat to us(numerically inferior polity attacking an iron civilization with only stone weapons is dead) without the pain of having to deal with integrating another culturally distinct vassal. No bronze, no fight left in them, we can move towards diplo-annexation.
Otherwise they'd be back again in 3 turns or so.

To cope with the expected Stability costs of the Tax crisis, Religion crisis and the integration crisis, then, we'd do a Festival and minimize refugee intake for now.

Thoughts?
 
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Yorick's Skull said:
I admit to skimming somewhat to keep up since the update, but what was the argument for giving the Lowlands Black Soil? Especially as it is a particularly slavery reinforcing tech, which we invented the Half-exile tech to bypass?

No real problems with the other leaders (except they mostly aren't my preferred choices, but whatevs the thread does as it wills) but the Black soil seems a little out of the way for most. Is it because it is such an old tech we don't mind losing the edge it gives the People?
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It may reduce the incentive of warring for better farmland and brings their view of labour closer to our's.

Also helps with diease and population growth, but no one cares about that.
 
notgreat said:
And finally, a strategic vote because Annual Festival just is not what we want to do when we're losing wealth every turn (-0 to -2 per turn during the crisis), and its hilariously inefficient compared to Wildcat->Justice. The debating also has a chance of bringing back Greater Good, which means we'll want lots of econ to throw into the fire.
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Ok, first of all we aren't being hit by the crisis anymore. The improved sacred forest made us immune.

Greater Good was not a spiritual value. It was a social value. The only values in question here are spiritual values, and we don't want any of what the Xoh are selling in that department.
 
notgreat said:
And narratively, I absolutely do not want a Free City. It's just asking for trouble, creating a semi-independent entity in the middle of our core territories. Plus it's only 1 econ per turn and 1 Cent maximum. Those are both very small. We just need to Survey->Wildcat some more.
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Currently tightening our grip at every turn is causing us to lose Athority. It being in our core territories should mean far less drift.
 
Academia Nut said:
They both help, yes.



North thinks the south is pretty cool, they helped out and they aren't hogging all the resources to themselves anymore.

The deployment zone affects the opposition they face and the amount of damage they can do. Deploying from the east going west is more open terrain into core territories, while from the west going east is more narrow passes into more peripheral territory.
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Oh good, the north tensions are relieved.

We need More Roads!
And laws.
And more roads.
And laws.
 
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