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Paths of Civilization

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Glassware said:
So, this would massively improve their farms, but their ability to smith the iron in much quantity would be likely minimal. It also rusts fairly quickly. Feels like a calculated risk, as it'd make them heavily dependent on us for more iron, yet risk our secrets getting out.
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To be fair the secret is already out. We did just go Lol!stomp with all our iron weapons out and about. Although on the other hand that just reeks of it leading to issues with our vassals either through espionage or smuggling iron out of our lands.
 
Yeah folks please be careful of your econ maths. Very easy to go to negative econ here.
 
[X] [RA] Stamp down on all of this (-2 Stability, +2 Religious Authority)

We cannot acknowledge that their beliefs are even worth debating. Their belief systems involve absolute faith and the allowance of such things as slavery. This could warp Symphony into something very bad indeed and outright destroy Love of Wisdom. Taking the Stability hit will be hard but it's necessary.
 
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[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy north to guard against nomads
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
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Things that I'm confidant in:
[] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
This synergizes well with Love of Wisdom, and frankly the other options aren't particular good; we can't afford to just give up 2 stability, and I wouldn't rather not give up our values without a fight here.

[] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[] [Low] Permit their use of iron tools (Allows iron tools to be traded to vassal)
We can afford to hand over the black soil tech, since it isn't something we should be worried about propagating; if more people spent their time on the land that generally makes them more compatible with our values anyhow. We should also send over assistance, since said assistance gets some of our own values mingling with our vassals.
Definitely not trading iron to someone we haven't solidified a hold on. Nopenopenope.

Not sure about the other options.

[] [High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)
The other benefits aren't that great, and we straight-up can't afford an extra front right now. Lets focus on our other two or three wars instead, eh?

[] [RB] Deploy north to guard against nomads
Definitely don't want to send them to the lowlands - they've picked up enough bad habits there.

[] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
Yes, please. Not only do we get +1 to our Cent cap (when we've been explicitly told that higher cent cap means less admin woes), but it is an extra econ saved per turn, and we get One of Each (Six).
 
[X] [RA] Stamp down on all of this (-2 Stability, +2 Religious Authority)
Agreed, andre: acknowledging them just makes it look like we respect them on an even footing with our own position
 
Andres110 said:
[X] [RA] Stamp down on all of this (-2 Stability, +2 Religious Authority)

We cannot acknowledge that their beliefs are even worth debating. Their belief systems involve absolute faith and the allowance of such things as slavery. This could warp Symphony into something very bad indeed and outright destroy Love of Wisdom. Taking the Stability hit will be hard but it's necessary.
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It's less acknowledging their beliefs and more acknowledging their gods.

The debate is basically the Ymaryn and the Lowlander priests arguing why certain things happen, which god makes these things happen, and how the gods are interpreted.

If I recall, the Lowlanders had gods that were respected by the Ymaryn, and I'm sure someone of our pantheon can find a place in Lowlander religion.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Things that I'm confidant in:
[] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
This synergizes well with Love of Wisdom, and frankly the other options aren't particular good; we can't afford to just give up 2 stability, and I wouldn't rather not give up our values without a fight here.
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It doesn't, though. They're explicitly destroying us in debates because we have no answer to their fallacious logic due to being more developed philosophically. This vote puts Love of Wisdom at significant risk.
 
Candesce said:
Quick check, AN - there are a bunch of minor rivers in the lowlands that these would actually be useful, yeah?

Labor saving technology is a big deal if we want people to give up slavery, so I'm inclined to give'm anyway, but.
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There's enough to have an effect.

Sivantic said:
How are you going to count the following vote?

How to deal with the lowlanders? (Pick as many as you like)
[] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[] [Low] Restrict right to wage war to defensive only (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[] [Low] Permit their use of iron tools (Allows iron tools to be traded to vassal)
[] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)

What is the cutoff? How do you decide what happens and what does not?
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Will generally look at what has at least half the total vote, look for obvious popularity.

Andres110 said:
will our high Mysticism increase the chance of us winning religious debates?
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It will help.

Andres110 said:
why was it a good thing that we kept the Red Banner at home?
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Notice problems more easily and you have more freedom to redeploy when fresh.
 
Glassware said:
It doesn't, though. They're explicitly destroying us in debates because we have no answer to their fallacious logic due to being more developed philosophically. This vote puts Love of Wisdom at significant risk.
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It's either we honor our love of wisdom by debating and risk it getting trashed or we trash our love of wisdom by writing off different opinion because it is offensive.

A true catch 22 situation.
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Permit their use of iron tools (Allows iron tools to be traded to vassal)
[X] [High] Subjugate (+5 Prestige, +5 Wealth, gain new vassal, unlikely to complete this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)

Debates because I just thing they have the must amount of justice.

Crack down on their priests + the spirit of the law because I'm a hypocrite and fuck them.

Give them tools, black soil, and mill technology because having a shite vassal is boring and we can just beat them up and conquer them if they give it away.

I'd wanted to subjugate the HK or at least take territory from them, but I agree w/ others that we need to end the war now. Punitive measures seem like an obvious thing to extract from those who'd attack us. It also provides us with more wealth to burn later.
Lel, switching back. Let's conquer the lowlands. Another vassal will support our other vassal, the lowland minors. The HK will additionally combine well with Hatvalley and their culture isn't as antithetical to our values as those held by some. Plus, their land is presumably quite developed already. *coughs at the Feudalists* Blood inheritance.

Festival to counter the stability cost.

No to Free City because I don't want to burn our subordinate slots for a subordinate who can't take independent actions.

Non-minimal refugees cus econ.
 
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@Academia Nut, are there settlements to the west of our lowland vassals? I'm confused as to why they're not expanding in the direction of the Highland Kingdom instead of picking fights with the Swamp People. There's an entire river there, after all...
 
Glassware said:
It doesn't, though. They're explicitly destroying us in debates because we have no answer to their fallacious logic due to being more developed philosophically. This vote puts Love of Wisdom at significant risk.
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We are actually winning these debates, as we destroy the Lowlanders on things that we have definite answers on.

Where the People had definite answers they crushed the foreign priests in debate, frequently leaving them speechless with demonstrations of magic, but the world was so mysterious that they frequently had to give ground in the face of unyielding belief.

We give ground when we have no answers to the question, but regardless we are still winning overall.
 
Anything other than the best success in the religious debates will result in at least some of the lowlanders' religion getting stuck in our civilisation. Their religion is very bad and having any of it present within our system will lead to a significant amount of long-term pain, a lot more than what we'd suffer from just taking the -2 Stability hit.

If we don't completely win, our priests may start using the tactics of the lowlander priests, of going full on absolute sans-evidence faith to win arguments. This is very bad and as its effectiveness is shown, it's a problem that will only get worse.

Academia Nut said:
With years of campaigning in the south and numerous brides taken in war, they had picked up a number of traits from their hosts, and the bloody minded gods from the south had followed them home.
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Their gods are warlike. Worst-case scenario is our civilisation becomes more warlike. Anything but the best case scenario will result in the religion taking root in our warriors. Having warriors with beliefs different to our civilisation will result in disaster.
 
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How to deal with foreign gods?
[] [RA] Stamp down on all of this (-2 Stability, +2 Religious Authority)

This is just too big a stability loss (and frankly, not all the incoming spiritual values are bad.)

[] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

This has the benefit of being very much the Ymaryn way. We consider, weight then regulate EVERYTHING.

[] [RA] The correct gods will make themselves known (-1 Religious Authority, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

"Will make themselves known" sounds like the sort of thing that could degrade love of wisdom. Definite no.


How to deal with the lowlanders? (Pick as many as you like)
We should probably only pick one (or at most two) with "potential war with vassal".

[] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)

Anti-slavery. Very attractive.

[] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)

Long term, this probably would do the most for cultural integration. Short term, this does nothing but make them unhappy.

[] [Low] Restrict right to wage war to defensive only (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)

Very useful for defusing the lowlands, which is a high priority for us.

[] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)

This will provide them with both a rudimentary sanitation and an econ boost. I think it's a nobrainer.

[] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)

This one's more problematic. The lowlands don't need even more ways to use their river advantage.

[] [Low] Permit their use of iron tools (Allows iron tools to be traded to vassal)

Good for their econ, but we'd be putting a timer on how soon iron got out. Maybe a century or so.

[] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)

Not bad as a feelgood gesture, but we don't have the econ to spend.


War Goals for Highlanders
[] [High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)

White Peace.

[] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)

Light Gray peace. You attacked us, so pay up some token luxuries for peace. Very Just, and we could use the wealth.

[] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)

Keep fighting. I think we've bitten off enough for now...

[] [High] Subjugate (+5 Prestige, +5 Wealth, gain new vassal, unlikely to complete this turn)

This is the 'it's time to conquer the lowlands' play. Which is pretty suicidal with Divine Stewards.


Deploy the Red Banner
[] [RB] Remain at rest

Good for mobility and further cultural integration.

[] [RB] Deploy north to guard against nomads

Not bad, but if the north goes this could lead to the RB going with it. It would also tend to isolate the RB from any reforms we might employ.

[] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome

Good for cultural integration and defence.

[] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley

Good for offense, and would get us a better view into Hatvalley culturally.

[] [RB] Deploy to assist vassal against the Swamp Folk

Putting them right back in the culture which they're already going a bit native to. Probably not a wise choice.


Trouble's brewing, how to prepare?
[] [React] Main Expand Econ

We're REALLY low on econ. If we want to support our subordinate, we should do this or Mills.

[] [React] Main Build Mills

I don't like burning through our Wealth with the Tax damage. Otherwise, this is a nice option.

[] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival

Stability and Art; not bad.

[] [React] Main Expand Forests

LTE and study forests. This is a bit underwhelming with our econ at 2.

[] [React] Main Survey

This would prep for more trails. Which we apparently need in spades.

​
You're having trouble with the management of cities, make Sacred Forest a Free City?​
[] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)​

Takes away econ and econ expansion (which we need) and reduces the strain on our admin. We could seriously use that now. A tough choice.​

[] [City] No​

Maintain closer control over Sacred Forest. Would reduce their ability to operate independently. Since we might be raising Religious authority soon, this could end up being important.​


Everyone else isn't coping with the weather well​
[] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)​
[] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)​
[] [Refugee] Encourage people to abandon their homes for you territory (-2 Stab, potential further loss, +6-8 Econ)​
[] [Refugee] Let everyone know that your environment is stable (-3 Stab, potential further loss, +9-11 Econ, ???)​
[] [Refugee] Bring in absolutely everyone you can (-4 Stab, potential further loss, +11-14 Econ, overcrowding, ???)​
​
The usual. I don't think we should take a lot of refugees since we aren't THAT high on stability and are planning to get a big rush of Martial from the Stallions.​
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My preference:​

[] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)​

[] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)​
[] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)​
[] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)​
[] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)​

[] [React] Main Expand Econ​

[] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)​

[] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)​
 
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@Academia Nut, would picking to debate put Love of Wisdom at risk?

pblur said:
This is just too big a stability loss (and frankly, not all the incoming spiritual values are bad.)
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It's not too big. It's -2. We've been at Stability -1 before. Remember how the Spirit Talkers were always unwilling to advance because it meant losing Stability? This is a similar situation. It'll be hard to pick stamping down due to the Stability loss, but ultimately it's the best choice in the long run.

Their spiritual values involve things like acceptance of slavery, appreciation for war, and winning arguments with sheer faith and confidence rather than evidence. They might have some good spiritual values in there but by and large they seem bad, and the most powerful/likely to warp our values are those bad values.
 
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[] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

@Academia Nut : How do our priests debate with each other when they are not certain of the turth? Can we set up carefully moderated debates? Where our priests record transcripts of the debates in order to learn all of the arguments and be prepared for them.
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [Low] Permit their use of iron tools (Allows iron tools to be traded to vassal)
[X] [High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)
[X] [RB] Deploy north to guard against nomads
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [React] Main Expand Econ
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
 
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