GGH NOOOO FUCKING NO oh my god are the 40 foot tall burning neon letters not ENOUGH? Holy shit take it from me I 100% sympathize I'm the guy who planned to put Madoka and homura in a room and show them PMMM and Rebellion, but that went out the window. That went out the FUCKING window. If we tell Homura this she will WITCH THE FUCK OUT. Maybe we can defuse it in the future but that is NOT today. You'll bad end the FUCKING quest.
Seriously, I'm Mister "I want to tell everyone absolutely everything" but Firn's telegraphing that this is something Homura cannot mentally withstand and unlike Mami we can't FORCE HER DOWN until she calms down because of Time Stop. We can't prevent Homura going into her own frozen world and grief-spiralling into oblivion.
Child therapist here, there's situations where it's unethical to tell them certain things at certain junctures because it will unbuild progress you've made with them, and that children often need to be lead to certain modes of thinking before you can make further progress with them. That is Homura's situation. The Homura of today cannot handle this.
At the very worst, she should be able to handle this after Walpurgis. Maybe there's another way we can do this earlier, but we cannot do this NOW.
So let's lay the groundwork for getting Homura in a better headspace without letting her know there's a hazard, and think of how to keep Kyubey's FUCKING MOUTH SHUT.
You might well be right. After all, I'm just so damn tired, and being tired is like being drunk. But can you blame me for being tired? It's been THREE. GODDAMN. YEARS. of people yelling "THEY CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" whenever I or anyone else in the thread suggests showing even an ounce of trust in other people.
I'm selling it like a joke and a mindscrew, but I don't think it's a "infobomb" except facetiously. It's literally just us supposing that because we think that Homura and Madoka have a hand in our creation, then those two are, essentially, our family.
You might well be right. After all, I'm just so damn tired, and being tired is like being drunk. But can you blame me for being tired? It's been THREE. GODDAMN. YEARS. of people yelling "THEY CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" whenever I or anyone else in the thread suggests showing even an ounce of trust in other people.
[X] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, including timelines that, to your knowledge, couldn't have happened. Some of it, like medieval France, isn't even from the loops. Some are different realities. An Earth with no magic for one.
-[X]What did and didn't happen is one thing but the mechanics seem accurate. Which raises the time travel mechanics from Homura's Revenge.
-[X]Even the impossibilities have left their marks. The Turkey earthquake and the Arab Springs happened in the magicless world for instance.
--[X]One plus side: If anyone learns something dangerous, however horrible or impossible, we almost certainly know enough to solve it or talk them through it.
[X]We've been wondering for a while whether Madoka created us specifically to help Homura.
-[X]It's Homura's to say but... Did Madoka know about the loops last time? And would Homura be willing to tell us her wish?
-[X]...Would this make them ...our mothers?
150 exactly.
So, expanding, here's a way to say "Hey Homura I can help talk you through the potentialbomb" without noting that it's anything specific to the potentialbomb, or even to Homura.
Also brings up more info on the last timeline and the mom-bomb.
--[X]One plus side: If anyone learns something dangerous, however horrible or impossible, we almost certainly know enough to solve it or talk them through it.
[X]We've been wondering for a while whether Madoka created us specifically to help Homura.
-[X]It's Homura's to say but... Did Madoka know about the loops last time? And would Homura be willing to tell us her wish?
-[X]...Would this make them ...our mothers?
I've wanted to ask Homura again about the past loop, and hope we can do it more carefully than this.
Homura's told us Madoka wished everything could be fixed. We could ask for specific wording, I guess.
[] Ask Homura if Madoka knew about the loops last time, and about where Witches come from.
[] Tell her we believe we were created through Madoka's Wish, thanks to Homura's loops.
[] Maybe we should call Homura 'mom'? Oh, and Madoka 'Mado-kaa'!
-[x]Ask Homura if she wants to hear information that we believe she might take badly.
-[x] If yes, inform her that Madoka's potential has been increasing due to Homura's efforts to save her.
--[x] note that this information doesn't cause any real changes in the grand of things as long as Madoka doesn't make a wish, after all the Incubators efforts to make her a magical girl doesn't change because Madoka was able to be one before the loops started, and that Wally was going to come here no matter what Madoka's potential was anyway.
[X] Keep talking.
-[X] Joke that you'll take her advice into consideration. Kneecaps are a privilege, not a right.
-[X] Ask Homura why she thinks Sabrina exists. Then explain that, as far as you understand, you're here thanks to her.
-[X] Tell her how much you admire her.
-[X] Lastly, explain you believe Madoka won't make a Wish if Walpurgisnacht is defeated if she knows what Homura has gone through. Madoka respects that.
[X] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, including timelines that, to your knowledge, couldn't have happened. Some of it, like medieval France, isn't even from the loops. Some are different realities. An Earth with no magic for one.
-[X]What did and didn't happen is one thing but the mechanics seem accurate. Which raises the time travel mechanics from Homura's Revenge.
-[X]Even the impossibilities have left their marks. The Turkey earthquake and the Arab Springs happened in the magicless world for instance.
--[X]One plus side: If anyone learns something dangerous, however horrible or impossible, we almost certainly know enough to solve it or talk them through it.
[X]We've been wondering for a while whether Madoka created us specifically to help Homura.
-[X]It's Homura's to say but... Did Madoka know about the loops last time? And would Homura be willing to tell us her wish?
-[X]...Would this make them ...our mothers?
I don't always have time to reply to everything in the thread that I might wish to. And the last couple days have been particularly busy. In fact, this'll probably be my last chance to post for the next ten hours or so...
I don't always have time to reply to everything in the thread that I might wish to. And the last couple days have been particularly busy. In fact, this'll probably be my last chance to post for the next ten hours or so...
[X] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, spanning centuries and continents, and including timelines that, to your knowledge, couldn't have happened.
-[X]As a benign example, raise the time travel mechanics from Homura's Revenge.
-[X] Mutually discuss what this means for the reliability of your knowledge, with an aim of reassurance.
[X] If we really are here as a result of Madoka's wish... then we only exist because of the massive effort Homura has put in.
-[X] Thank Homura for helping you be here. You like existing.
-[X] (Jokingly.) ...Would this make them ...our mothers?
[X] An insight: Once her friends, including Homura herself, are safe, if Madoka knows the impact her wishing would have on Homura, and all the effort and sacrifice it took Homura to get through the loops... Madoka will respect that effort, and swear off making a wish
I'm not sure I'd call that a benign example. "BTW, you could have had allies at any time if you'd just bothered to grab somebody before turning your shield over."
Otherwise, the vote seems... acceptable.
It seems like the potentialbomb is a move that Kyubey usually saves for the endgame, so it's probably fine if we don't deal with it tonight. But this isn't a problem that we're going to just be able to ignore forever. Eventually, we will have to tackle this issue. The only question is whether it will be before or after it becomes a crisis.
Kyubey trying to put Madoka into situations that will coerce her into contracting while ignorant of the consequences, on the other hand, is a move he plays early and often. The best way to discourage her from contracting is to remove that ignorance.
I had a thought that we might approach the idea with Homura by talking about how hard it is keeping so many secrets, especially when some of our friends are in the loop and some are not, and that resulted in the slip of the tongue earlier with Walpurgisnacht, but I don't really have time to write it out right now.
PMAS has already diverged from PMMM. The ability of Madoka's wish to affect subsequent timelines... That alone changes everything, doesn't it?
As long as Madoka's influence is locked in her own timeline, when she wishes, she can't affect her "next self" through the wish except by it fucking with Homura's emotions.
But really... The potential bomb... It seems so, well, just trivial.
*watches users run for pitchforks and torches*
The potential bomb is that Homura's actions have increased Madoka's potential with every loop. This slightly screws with Homura's ability to make things work -- it makes Kyubey more interested in contracting her, it makes her contracts more volatile, etc. And with her wishes locked away in her corresponding timeline, there's no way for that to be beneficial.
But if Madoka has gained enough potential for her wishes to cross timelines, then suddenly that entire mechanism just kind of shatters, like a glass mirror dropped from a skyscraper. What's to prevent Madoka from wishing that Homura would have the tools to build a happy ending in the next timeline? And if her potential keeps growing with every loop, what's to prevent that wish from getting stronger?
And stronger?
And stronger?
According to the madowish theory of Sabrina's birth, the potential bomb is a dud in PMAS: as compared to in PMMM where Madoka's increasing potential only makes the situation harder for Homura to solve, in PMAS, as Madoka's potential grows, the chance of powerful positive anomalies in subsequent timelines grows with it. Obviously there's a "bad out" where Madoka ascends instead of altering the next timeline. But Kyubey can't know of that possibility. Nobody can, unless they know about, well, Madokami. And therefore, (barring as-of-yet mostly unevidentiated Post-Rebellion theories) neither can Homura without us telling her.
This is why I actually have a difficult time understanding how the potential bomb works out as a Bad Thing. And yet, Firn warns us against it pretty clearly. So there must be some danger in it, somewhere. But... I have such a hard time finding it. Because the causality seems so clear.
I think that actually bears underlining because it almost suggests something weird going on -- the casuality seems so clear.
We didn't exist in the previous loops, and more importantly we didn't exist in the first timeline, where Homura wasn't a magical girl. Whatever the map of causality that lead to our existence, then, it must begin with Homura turning her shield to go back in time. It must begin with Homura's actions. Homura's wish, Homura's loops, Homura's path that took her through the growth of Madoka's potential. If our existence proves beneficial enough to save Madoka, then Homura's actions will have been beneficial enough to save Madoka; if our presence improves the situation then Homura's actions are proven capable of improving the situation, Homura's loops are proven capable of improving the situation. Hope remains. Hope is restored.
I have always failed to comprehend how this leads to Bad Things. In all honesty, Firnagzen's renewed warning of a few pages back confused the shit out of me. I tried to reconcile it the only way I could -- that if Kyubey (or us, Madokami forbid!) could convince Homura of the canon potential bomb then everything would be fucked. Which, obviously, does make sense, because the canon potential bomb is the death of Homura's hope. But our presence seems to fly in the face of that.
I even remember something about Homura continuing only because she knew that she had to or she'd despair, or some such -- even that our presence, our existance would seem to fly in the face of. If the timeline can be perturbed so sharply as to produce Sabrina, what else is out there?
...
But as much as I've tried to convince myself that that's what Firn's warning is about...
That still makes no sense. Unless it's warning us that Homura will go try to commit suicide on some hairbrained tangent of thought that leads her to think being responsible for Madoka's potential means we're more likely to succeed without her, which is such a ridiculously unlikely possibility... She's already said that we're doing better than she has. Here and now, I can reasonably see how the potential bomb might cause her to despair if this loop ends badly. I can't reasonably see how she could come to a conclusion of despair this loop over the potential bomb alone, when this loop goes directly against the despair-causing conclusion that "more loops = situation is worse."
Not even when I try to impose the maximum reasonable perceptory limitations on my trains of thought, trying to simulate the way Homura imperfectly thinks about things, can I reasonably see that.
So I try to go to the next most possible setup, that Homura ends up self-flagellating over causing Madoka excess harm by looping and thereby making the situation worse... And I shake my head at that, because, again, current loop flies in the face of looping -> worse situation, and therefore any self-hatred should not be meaningfully increased by the potential bomb.
It. Does. Not. Make. Sense.
So I've watched for roughly a year as people have fluctuated between Yea and Nay over whether to "defuse" the potential bomb, and on occasion I've asked if people are sure it's that bad, and every time I've been assured, "Yes, it is that bad." And I've sat here, trying to find the logic to make it that bad, and I fail, and fail, and fail. And then I conclude that it must be illogical from any point of view which I can conceive of personally, but it must be logical from some other point of view, because so many intelligent and rational users whom I respect say that the potential bomb is a Bad Thing.
But here we are now, debating the actual vote/s for the potential bomb, receiving a warning from Firnagzen to be careful about what we're thinking about doing, and still:
It. Does. Not. Make. Sense.
And worse, even the damn warning from Oriko that Firn is referencing is interpretable in other ways.
Oriko takes a shuddering breath, closing her eyes before looking at you again. "She's making things worse," she says in a low voice. "Kyuubey already knows, and if he tells her that, she will despair. You have to stop that from happening."
Oriko takes a shuddering breath, closing her eyes before looking at you again. "She's making things worse," she says in a low voice. "Kyuubey already knows, and if he tells her that, she will despair. You have to stop that from happening."
Among the more unlikely possibilities, that could be interpreted to mean we should tell Homura, it could be interpreted to mean we have to stop her from despairing and to hell with whether she learns the potential bomb or not, that's just a possible threat... But Firnagzen's recent warning would certainly seem to contradict any of that, again.
So, unless somebody has a counterargument to this essay, all I really see is a possibility that there's some factor we don't know about that's turning this bomb into a pocket nuke. But that would have all sorts of implications, partial to complete deviance from canon PMMM loop-history the least among them!
Edit: I should stress, that's one possibility, and frankly I think much more likely is that we're overcorrecting for Firn's hint, unless somebody has a counterargument to this essay.
Sabrina: Do not threaten to nuke them, do not threaten to nuke them, do not threaten to nuk--
Tokyo Council Girl: "It seems we are at an impasse."
Sabrina: "Homura? Kneecaps."
*Murderface goes Murderface*
Tokyo Council Girl: *Screams in pain*
Sabrina: "Still at an impasse?"
Tokyo Council Girl: "Fine! We'll accept the goddamn Clear Seeds!"
Homura: "I told you it would be easier to shoot them."
--[X]One plus side: If anyone learns something dangerous, however horrible or impossible, we almost certainly know enough to solve it or talk them through it.
It's supposed to be a way to get at our ability to help anyone through our knowledge. [Really meaning Homura herself, but in a way she'll immediately hear as "our other friends"] I'd have liked to add something like "If you think someone's learned something esoteric or personal, could you bring them to us?"
The rest is arranged in a way to make it buildup to that. If the potentialbomb happens or she needs to loop again there's a solution already in Homura's revenge and we can help her through telling her more.
Stating we have memories outside of the time loops is also pretty important since it lets her know we can help her with things even if they're new or appear afterwards. She knows our "magicless" world knowledge extends several years into the future. And if she thinks a little further then she'll also know it could help with other realities. Especially if we talk about it as only the most prominent example out of many.
If Homucifer appears, via whatever manner, Homura will have cause to know we know about her. If it's a a parallel timeline like Redshirt posits and Homura deals with her, we can deal with that. (Rather than, say, being some creepy future self holding everything over Homura's head, we already know the blackmail material.)
If it's Homura who's taken her own memories and powers, she may come to know we know but she also knows that we're willing to talk and didn't arbitrarily break her wishes by telling her more ignorant self. (who's memories she presumably tampered with for a reason.) We didn't tell her about the strange reality that is post-Madokami PMMM, but rather the strange reality that is a world without magic or aliens, hopefully in a way she can infer the former is also known to us, should she come to remember it.
I've wanted to ask Homura again about the past loop, and hope we can do it more carefully than this.
[] Ask Homura if Madoka knew about the loops last time, and about where Witches come from.
[] Tell her we believe we were created through Madoka's Wish, thanks to Homura's loops.
[] Maybe we should call Homura 'mom'? Oh, and Madoka 'Mado-kaa'!
Homura's told us Madoka wished everything could be fixed. We could ask for specific wording, I guess.
Interesting, but it treads much too close to the potential-bomb. Once the setup exists, if we want to phrase it such that the potential increase led to our existence, (so it's not all bad) we can reveal that at any time later. Hell, Homura could just have the epiphany herself if she thinks a little at that point. There's no need to go that close.
I do kinda want to argue for supposition rather than permission: Mostly it just strikes me as more natural flowing when it's us supposing the two to be our parents/family.
[] Tell her we believe we were created through Madoka's Wish, to help Homura.
Either
[] Maybe we should call Homura 'mom'? Oh, and Madoka 'Mado-kaa'!
OR
[] We've also been wondering if that makes them our mothers.
Other possibilities: Rather than asking out of the blue, start by saying that the one thing we don't have is information about our creation, though we do have guesses.
Lastly, the theoretical stuff occurred to me and Oriko did say to ask her about the last loop carefully. If she sealed her memories and asking the wrong question touches on it, that could be why.
So this:
[] Ask Homura if Madoka knew about the loops last time, and about where Witches come from.
may need to be placed and handled carefully.
Anyways, I've I'll be posting this now since rewriting will take a while, and I can't exactly do it well without arguments and ideas. Figuring out what and how to pare down will be a royal mess.
This bugs me. Why does Oriko think that Homura is making things worse? We're sitting here looking at the loops as having a good outcome overall, that eventually they culminate in the Fix-Everything Wish which is unequivocally Worth It. So why is Oriko stating, with such final certainty, that Homura is making things worse with the loops?
Oh, I'm sure that this would go perfectly in-character. But the QM just dumped a not-a-hint-at-all on us so we wouldn't bad-end the quest in a way that we didn't even see fucking coming. Homura would have found the flaw in her perfect world and torn herself apart to find it and that would have been it. No save, just die. What's the point in playing if we can't handle trivial shit like this? It's only going to get worse from here on out. Why did we think we could handle this? Why did anyone think we could handle this? Why does anyone think that this can be handled?
What's the point in playing if we can't handle trivial shit like this? It's only going to get worse from here on out. Why did we think we could handle this? Why did anyone think we could handle this?
This bugs me. Why does Oriko think that Homura is making things worse? We're sitting here looking at the loops as having a good outcome overall, that eventually they culminate in the Fix-Everything Wish which is unequivocally Worth It. So why is Oriko stating, with such final certainty, that Homura is making things worse with the loops?
Yeah, this hit me too but I passed it off as a derp on Oriko's part. I'm not sure what the heck to make of it. It certainly fits the "SPOOKY" possibilities.
Oh, I'm sure that this would go perfectly in-character. But the QM just dumped a not-a-hint-at-all on us so we wouldn't bad-end the quest in a way that we didn't even see fucking coming. Homura would have found the flaw in her perfect world and torn herself apart to find it and that would have been it. No save, just die. What's the point in playing if we can't handle trivial shit like this? It's only going to get worse from here on out.
See, I'm still trying to decide how much of a hint it was, and in what capacity. It was so vague! And I wouldn't put it past Firn to have put that there against the possibility of a "let's just tell Homura the potential bomb!" vote which, I mean, imagine something like
[] Tell Homura the potential bomb
Like, can you imagine how "well" that would've gone?
I think you're overreacting to this. As much as I say there's a possibility of SPOOKY I rather lean in favor of "we're overcorrecting for the hint". All of the dire warnings that Homu will just implode if potential bombed by us are, I think, mostly garbage. Kyubey, of course, with the proper timing and phrasing would undoubtedly affect that outcome, fulfilling Oriko's warning.
But, like, I'm trying to see if there's anything I'm missing here. And eagerly awaiting Firn's return.
