Since people are having trouble remembering just what it is our priests do for us.

  • They're the ones who carry out most study actions, and do things like figure out that mercury is toxic before our kings start drinking it.
  • They're the ones who keep our citizens doing hard work for uncertain reward, like maintaining our forests and making sure we properly dispose of toxic waste rather than dumping it in the streams.
  • They're the ones on the front lines whenever a new plague shows up.
  • They're the ones who keep an eye out for moral principles - and so are the group most opposed to slavery in our civilization.

Our priests do a lot for us.
 
I may be incorrect but I don't think that's how it should be interpreted... instead, it's the Ymaryn's religion gaining RA. While it may be all sunshine and puppies in terms of attracting more followers, by increasing the powerbase of the clergy and also directly injecting them into the politics (instead of their indirect roles as advisors), I fear for the worst.

The clergy is already more or less directly involved with politics due to having a role in electing the king, and we can't stop it at this point-it is, I'm afraid, a necessary evil for any civilization with an organized religion. Our best bet is to make it so that the attempts to show piety are done in such a way that our civilization as a whole benefits, and I think that our priesthood has been well structured to this end. Now it's time to begin spreading it.
 
I find it kinda funny that the priests are getting shit on for upholding cultural traditions while people are concerned that our periphery states might secede due to cultural differences.
 
Since people are having trouble remembering just what it is our priests do for us.

  • They're the ones who carry out most study actions, and do things like figure out that mercury is toxic before our kings start drinking it.
  • They're the ones who keep our citizens doing hard work for uncertain reward, like maintaining our forests and making sure we properly dispose of toxic waste rather than dumping it in the streams.
  • They're the ones on the front lines whenever a new plague shows up.
  • They're the ones who keep an eye out for moral principles - and so are the group most opposed to slavery in our civilization.

Our priests do a lot for us.
Exactly. Under the current system, with their current political power and responsibilities, they have done all that and failed to make us stagnate or regress. Every time they've tried to make us stagnate or regress - iron and horses - they failed, because their power was low enough that they could be overriden by the will of the voters. The current status quo is such that our priests are the best kind of priests we can possibly get. Changing it either way - giving them power or taking it away - changes the status quo, which thus logically changes their current configuration from being optimal to being sub-optimal.
 
Since people are having trouble remembering just what it is our priests do for us.

  • They're the ones who carry out most study actions, and do things like figure out that mercury is toxic before our kings start drinking it.
  • They're the ones who keep our citizens doing hard work for uncertain reward, like maintaining our forests and making sure we properly dispose of toxic waste rather than dumping it in the streams.
  • They're the ones on the front lines whenever a new plague shows up.
  • They're the ones who keep an eye out for moral principles - and so are the group most opposed to slavery in our civilization.

Our priests do a lot for us.
Yeah but they don't need to be involved in politics to do any of that. Also I think our shamans are the ones who do the research while our priests tend to the masses though I may be wrong.
 
I may be incorrect but I don't think that's how it should be interpreted... instead, it's the Ymaryn's religion gaining RA. While it may be all sunshine and puppies in terms of attracting more followers, by increasing the powerbase of the clergy and also directly injecting them into the politics (instead of their indirect roles as advisors), I fear for the worst.
Fortunately our Religion is polytheistic meaning it is inherently flexible. This should make it even more flexible.

What bad thing are you expecting to happen that would not happen anyway?
 
[X] [Divine] Speak up for the idea (+1 Religious Authority, other effects)
[X][Main]Sacred Forest Renewal
[X][Secondary]Change Policy-Balanced
[X][Secondary]War Mission-Northern Nomads
[X] Red Banner Company - Northern Nomads

we need to unify our military cultures more and ensure that we aren't going to have to deal with a horde for several more generations.
 
Yes, and the priesthood never innovates things, they just get in the way all the time. I mean, all those study actions are obviously done by the average man, while the priesthood keeps trying to stop them. Why, without our shamans, I'm sure we'd be much farther advanced than we are now!

It's not like the shamans created the sacred warding, stopped multiple diseases, and so forth.
And it's not like they can still do those things without political power?
And it's not like they can and have tried to get int the way of those things before but have only failed due to a lack of political power?

Honestly dude at least argue against the point that the Priests have actively tried to stop us gaining extremely valuable techs before and have only been stopped by a lack of political power, instead of ranting on about how awesome they are. I realise they are useful, and I rather like them, but you haven't disproven my examples that they have gotten in the way of incredibly useful innovation before and have only been stopped from causing more issue due to a lack of political influence.
This is baseless fearmongering. Our priests are not idiots, and increasing their power will help both our polity and our faith. You remember getting Love of Wisdom, which respects innovation, right? You remember how the priests are the driving force behind the Sacred Forest Renewal Project?



That was them responding to animal cruelty. And you know, given that there was no stability loss or anything, the fact that our king at the time had a good argument for what appeared to be institutionalized animal cruelty suggests that they listen to reason.
And if you understood what I'm saying maybe you wouldn't have to go straight to saying I'm 'baselessly fear mongering'. The Priests have tried to stifle innovations that would give us massive boosts on several occasions in the past, and have only been unable to cause massive damage due to a lack of political power, if we give them political power the next time we come to make a controversial but beneficial decision they don't like they may be able to cause some serious damage. Love of Wisdom wouldn't have allowed them to let us create cavalry, so you can't shield yourself with it. It was a decision they opposed, for good reason, but yet still opposed it and if they had more political power they would have made gaining it far more costly.

I have several examples of my 'baseless' ideas. Have some respect please and don't just resort to near insulting me next time.
 
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[X] [Divine] Speak up for the idea (+1 Religious Authority, other effects)
[X][Main]Sacred Forest Renewal
[X][Secondary]Change Policy-Balanced
[X][Secondary]War Mission-Northern Nomads
[X] Red Banner Company - Northern Nomads
 
Because it wasn't wisdom! It was literally a bunch of kids abusing horses for fun. The kids weren't trying to invent horseriding, the only reason it did lead to it was the King had a dream that he shared with the priest, who tentatively agreed such an idea might work and left it to the king's discretion.
Yet they opposed it! Horse riding is incredibly beneficial and they didn't know that it could be, that's excusable. However the only reason they didn't make that decision more costly to take is because they have little political power, giving them more of it will screw us the next time a cavalry or Iron option comes up by making it harder to pick it without political fallout
 
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If we speak against the idea then people are going to continue to wonder who the King of the Gods is. If we don't come up with an answer they will think of something for themselves. We are not given the choice to get rid of religion.
 
[X] [Divine] Speak up for the idea (+1 Religious Authority, other effects)




Alright so why would anyone pick this you say, it's obviously filthy divine right you may think, it will lead to a new kind of lobbying you may say. But consider this.

1- having the position of King be linked to the divine provides an opening for the king in religious matters, and a foot in the temple door is a bloody must for any self respecting monarch as it allows him to legitimately leverage and use religious authority. As well as regulate/keep tabs on /guide the development of clergy.

2- links to the divine would enhance the Legitimacy and Prestige of the position, but most importantly, it will create a further incentive and pressure the king into acting in a manner befitting the role. Making abuse less likely.

3- by having the position of divine kingship be by consensus and dependant on needs, the linkage means that mortal kingship is too based on needs and consensus (this solidifies the position of King as non hereditary and open)

4- by having Kings with divine Patronage, it means that Kings need find this divine patron, currently most of the ruling elite come for warrior families and a few trade and craft families. Thus the system of divine Patronage would make former political non entities into powers of note. Thus the Gods of farming, crafts and entertainment and thier devotees become both people you need to consider when making policy.

5- by linking the mundane with the divine, and especially linking humans to divinity, this opens up philosophy and proper theology. Everything from ethics, morality, existintialisim, sociology, the meaning of life, the meaning of meaning and political theory and so on.

6- this links into 2. A king must please his divine patron, this would mean bursts and rapid development in whatever fields pleases the gods for each generation, it would also solidify the culture of the people as non marital farmers, traders and craftsmen. Since the vast majority of the people are farmers, whilst the city folk are tradesmen and labourers and merchants, thus the influence of the warrior elites would dramatically drop as the non martial gods become more important.

7- this ties to 5, the concept of divine societal equity would have very interesting ramifications on mortal society.



8- it will net us dominant pilgrimage




And finally keep in mind that this is pure guessing and speculation, I've studied my history and theology, but this is a a work of fiction and anything is possible. And it may well be that am overthinking it or blatantly misunderstood the whole thing.
Also from the theology-philosophy angle, the complete opposite conclusion to my guess could be the actual development, this happend with the Buddhists afterall(egalitarian theology, but extremely stratified and hierarchal society) , but I see that as extremely unlikely in the ymir case.

And @McLuvin :
As for the development of the Lord by amalgamation, well its possible, but it's flat out impossible to guess how that would develop or how it would end, if it ever begins that is. Historical monotheistic religions where, and still are, the greatest monuments to human intellect and ingenuity in existence, the sheer breadth and size of the theology, philosophy, literature, poetry, art, politics and economics incorporated into the religions is staggering. It is the consolidated soul of entire civilizations . It's bloody impossible to guess at creating or even developing such things.

(and before you ask, no the main holy books, remarkable as they are, are but pamphlets when compared to the literal millions of tomes written around it, the whole idea that a religion is but a holy book or concept of singular divinity is beyond reductionist (unless you're a heretic, in which case it's legit))
 
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1- having the position of King be linked to the divine provides an opening for the king in religious matters, and a foot in the temple door is a bloody must for any self respecting monarch as it allows him to legitimately leverage and use religious authority. As well as regulate/keep tabs on /guide the development of clergy
Doors open both ways and the Priesthood would gain more power over said door than the monarch
8- it will net us dominant pilgrimage
we still need more prestidge for that mate, AN said we needed to boost both more
2- links to the divine would enhance the Legitimacy and Prestige of the position, but most importantly, it will create a further incentive and pressure the king into acting in a manner befitting the role. Making abuse less likely
Did you not see how our Martial Stallion Tribes King was treated for not acting as king as he should? There is no need for this as societal pressures already accomplish this and if you enhance the prestidge too much it might make commoners nervous to come before the Divine King with thier petty problems. Which is one of our greatest strengths. Also it could easily backfire with the king becoming lax in his role due to belief in divine patronage
 
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And it's not like they can still do those things without political power?
And it's not like they can and have tried to get int the way of those things before but have only failed due to a lack of political power?

Honestly dude at least argue against the point that the Priests have actively tried to stop us gaining extremely valuable techs before and have only been stopped by a lack of political power, instead of ranting on about how awesome they are. I reasoise they are useful, and I rather like them, but you haven't disproven my examples that they have gotten in the way of incredibly useful innovation before and have only been stopped from causing more issue due to a lack of political influence.
I was arguing that believing that the clergy are inherently against innovations is completely wrong, not that they won't block innovations. They are one of the most innovative groups we have, yet people act as though they were your average cartoon villain dark age Catholic Church.

And any group can block innovations if it goes against what they believe or know.
Yet they opposed it! Horse riding is incredibly beneficial and they didn't know that it could be, that's excusable. However the only reason they didn't make that decision more costly to take is because they have little political power, giving them more of it will screw us te next time a cavalry or Iron option comes up by making it harder to pick it without political fallout
No, they opposed a bunch of kids abusing animals. When the King pointed out that 1) Stupid kids would do it even if they told them not to, so it was better to control when it happened and 2) It could lead to useful things in the future, according to the Martial Hero King's dream, they didn't protest as far as we can tell. (We're still not even sure what RA means or does, so it dropping could mean anything). No stability drop, which angry shamans could have easily caused.
 
Since people are having trouble remembering just what it is our priests do for us.

  • They're the ones who carry out most study actions, and do things like figure out that mercury is toxic before our kings start drinking it.
  • They're the ones who keep our citizens doing hard work for uncertain reward, like maintaining our forests and making sure we properly dispose of toxic waste rather than dumping it in the streams.
  • They're the ones on the front lines whenever a new plague shows up.
  • They're the ones who keep an eye out for moral principles - and so are the group most opposed to slavery in our civilization.

Our priests do a lot for us.

Well, by the same argument the metal workers do a lot for us too: they are responsible for the handling of the material which is then crafted into tools for both agriculture and the rituals that the priests perform, and suffer great risks for it in their exposure to toxic tailings. They also craft weapons to use to defend Ymaryn land from the suspicious and aggressive neighbours.And yet, we are not giving them a direct in-line to meddle with the governance of the state.

Going back to the main point, the clergy already act close advisors to the state and have proven their worth as a (relatively) impartial party that can be utilised to settle disputes. I don't see why we need to change this aspect of the current political system and instead have it so that every political candidate is now inherently involved with the clergy from the very beginnings of their careers through this patronage.

Fortunately our Religion is polytheistic meaning it is inherently flexible. This should make it even more flexible.

What bad thing are you expecting to happen that would not happen anyway?

This will solidify the concept of polytheism, yes. But it also introduces the concept of politicised religion into the government.

As for what I am expecting to have happen: I am expecting nothing immediately, and likely nothing catastrophic even in the long term. After all, we have already voted and influenced the Ymaryn in such a direction that has already set them apart from their neighbours by centuries of progress. What will likely happen is that we will get more political turmoil after the honeymoon period when people realise that these divine patrons can be powerful rallying points and now introduces the concept of (essentially) paying for divine right through the gilding of a shrine. You may or may not get a surge in the number of clergy that are now in it for the profit, instead of either the spiritual / scientific aspect.

Heck, even that may not be all bad. If that did roll through we'd likely have to improve our clergy organisation and it may even lead to organised religion, further increasing the dominance of the RA of the Ymaryn religion.

But I personally preferred the mystical Ymaryn shamans that could go out and solve cholera and smallpox, not shamans that dole out divine favours to political candidates who paid the highest sum for the future succession (Yes, a hyperbole. But the simple introduction of such a concept just makes me sad).

[X] [Divine] Speak against it (-1 Religious Authority, potential trouble for heir)
 
w.

No, they opposed a bunch of kids abusing animals. When the King pointed out that 1) Stupid kids would do it even if they told them not to, so it was better to control when it happened and 2) It could lead to useful things in the future, according to the Martial Hero King's dream, they didn't protest as far as we can tell. (We're still not even sure what RA means or does, so it dropping could mean anything). No stability drop, which angry shamans could have easily caused.

It was dependent on dice roll. We were lucky it turned out well.
 
And it's not like they can still do those things without political power?
Research takes resources.

And there are a great many ideas we want the priests successfully opposing; otherwise we'd be cheering at the Stallion Tribes diverging from us culturally rather than constantly worrying about it. Not every idea - not even every new idea - is a good one.

And yet, we are not giving them a direct in-line to meddle with the governance of the state.
We most certainly have. Just what do you think the guilds are, hey?
 
. While many priests were supportive of the idea, many others were pointing out that essentially buying the support of gods was an idea that would only lead to suffering and heartache. Spirits and gods had their own agendas and just because you helped gild a shrine didn't guarantee support. Thus, for the king to say such things even further could lead to trouble.

I would like to point out what some of our priests think about this and how this is going to lead to a ton of corruption in our religion if we don't stay absolutely on top of it which we won't because voter discipline is weak.

Now I am going to take a nap so please try and not create 20-30 pages of post in the few hours I am asleep.
 
It was dependent on dice roll. We were lucky it turned out well.
Considering the King advocated what amounted to animal abuse as a sport to the Ymaryn, I doubt it was only the Shamans who would have protested. The king, as a warrior, was equally outraged.
Now I am going to take a nap so please try and not create 20-30 pages of post in the few hours I am asleep.
You sweet summer child...
 
I was arguing that believing that the clergy are inherently against innovations is completely wrong
I'm not saying that, I'm saying that they can and have gotten in the way of certain innovations and have only been stopped due to a lack of political power. They do innovate and have given us some great techs but they can and will continue to get in the way sometimes when it comes to the greater good, we shouldn't make it harder for us to accomplish the greater good at a later date by allowing those without our knowledge to impede us more easily
No, they opposed a bunch of kids abusing animals. When the King pointed out that 1) Stupid kids would do it even if they told them not to, so it was better to control when it happened and 2) It could lead to useful things in the future, according to the Martial Hero King's dream, they didn't protest as far as we can tell.
They did protest and that led to them losing RA as they were promptly ignored and forced to deal with it, something they could've made more difficult if they had actual significant political power.

RA dropped because the Priests said not to do something and the King said 'fuck you I am going to do it anyway!'. And thus their authority over the land was weakened as they were discredited
 
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