I've just had a thought: if prestige is the measure of how impressive our neighbors find us, shouldn't their prestige values be transparent to us?
Not exactly, it's more how impressive people feel their own civilization to be.

The lowlander cultures are scoring a lot of Prestige but it swings up and down all the time because you can gain and lose it via war missions easily. Our Prestige is solidly upper middle, because we don't take actions which risk prestige and most of it come from permanent wonders

As for the breakdown...jumping off the best one I've seen yet
[*]Diplomacy: Overall it measures how much people like us in general and think us friendly or cool. It is divided into several subsets including relations, active trade routes, and luxury goods. It should be noted that some people think quite poorly of us even if we have a high diplomacy score.
Primary concept of Diplomacy in modern culture is Trade Power/Diplomatic Credit.

High Diplomacy means that your neighbors are more likely to make concessions when dealing with you, as your traded goods are highly valued by their society and thus their leadership would prefer to grumble than to act directly against you without better reason.

Specifically, for us our Diplomacy translates to:
-Relatively weak trade ties with our neighbors, they come to us, while we send few traders out.
-Weak marriage ties with our neighbors, for the reason that we are not hereditary and don't deal with that(in fact, we have some policies against giving foreign states too much influence via marriage ties)
-Minor past precedents of relations due to being isolationist.
-Extremely strong trade power as we are the primary source of Tyrian Purple and bulk quantities of salt. Ceasing trade with us will immediately hurt food preservation and flavoring, as well as remove the most impressive colors used. Trading with us will produce significant social status via our goods.
-Moderately strong Trader/Diplomat presentation. Due to the high quality of living, everyone is visibly well fed, scar-free and has some access to dyes and precious metals, particularly the traders who are allocated such as job tools. However, our nobles are relatively closer to baseline as a result, so they don't seem quite as awesome as the more stratified societies out there.
[*]Economy: Represents the overall ability to leverage manpower. In effect, this represents people who are idle and do not have too much to do. Currently in our society these people spend their free time making more food, so having low or negative economy means reserves will start disappearing.
Pretty much fully described.
Due to We Have Reserves, Economy is also our levy manpower quantity, where we provide primitive phalanx, and reduces losses in War Missions with that.
[*]Econ Expansion: This represents free space that gaining economy usually takes up. If you look at the list of actions in their description, you will find how many econ expansions something takes up. It should be noted that our primary means of creating econ expansions now relies on the True City, so it's rather vital to us.
Also to be noted that if we produce too much space, people in the cities will move out of them and end the status. Large cities are difficult to sustain
[*]Martial: This represents our armies overall power. It is made up by the number of troops we have and their skill.
In our case, it's broken up into:
-Specialists - Chariots, Blackbirds and Carrion Eaters. These elite troops give us a very high force concentration and shock effect, but losses are felt disproportionately and are difficult to split forces. When Chariots take losses, you can easily lose 4 Martial at a go. However, thanks to the Library, we can generate Blackbirds indefinitely for free if we wanted to use an army made completely out of ninjas for some reason, which greatly relieves the issue of using elite units for military.
-Levies - Shieldwalls and archer banks. These are our 'common' farmer-warriors, derived from our Econ. At large numbers, they are high in defense and can cover large amounts of terrain.

Other cultures use different ratios, but since we fight nobody but Nomads(who also run an elite core army), we don't really know how they fight much.
[*]Stability: How confident people are in society. Higher stability means they believe that the overall society is working well and generally enjoying life. This causes them to work better and more effectively in general. This is effected by things like festivals with happiness and enforce justice to keep our sense of right and wrong enforced. It's cap is normally Legitimacy's value.
[*]Legitimacy: How correct is the government's rule. The higher this is the more people acknowledge the government as a thing that should exist. It represents the government following within the beliefs of the society as a whole. It is lowered when the government radically shifts away from the people's values and is raised when the government shows that it has the people's values as it's interest.
Additional quality, we know that regalia of authority can increase Legitimacy cap, though we didn't take them previously. The Palace is theorized to do so.
[*]Centralization: This is how much our government relies on central authorities. By having a high centralization, the government that holds the higher authority over all of the other governments can better communicate with people to get the things it wants done, done. In our current state this is measured with ease of communication (trails) and enforcing the laws put forth by the central government (enforce justice).
Further information:
-Centralization is used to mitigate the effects of environmental phenomenon through management of resources rather than allowing local authorities to deal with it. It helps with military offensives and megaprojects through central authority.
-However, Centralization reduces the number of actions that can be taken due to inefficiencies, which produces issues from mismanagement as per many planned economies. Coordinated efforts can do big things, but between relaying issues to central authority and back, opportunties are missed and people go idle.
-For our current mode of government, Centralization 1 and 6 will start causing issues.
-Excessively low Centralization is not inherently problematic(until Red at 0), but makes dealing with problems harder.
-Excessively high Centralization means the central administration is too busy micromanaging everything to get anything done. This can be mitigated by high Admin rulers, but will lead to stupid things done very efficiently.

[*]Hierarchy: This represents the power of branches that serve under the central government, directly differing to it. The higher the hierarchy the more the various 'departments' of the government can support the central government and allow it to do more things. This is currently measured with advisers to assist the king and provinces to help the king act. At one point we had a sort of extra action due to having a high hierarchy.
The extra action actually came from switching to a less centralized government model IIRC.

Still, we don't really interact with this stat much.
[*]Religious Authority: Though we have yet to see this actual effect it stands to reason, based on it's location, that it is how much people believe that our priests are correct about what they say in how the world works.
We'll see how this goes, but I suspect it works closer to Prestige.

[*]Art: Art represents the amount of decorative and evocative pieces we hold. It's made up of artisans who create art themselves as well as art imported from other people. The latter is how things overflowing into art work. Lowering it is when we put the art or artisans to work on other, specific projects. An example would be proclaim glory creating political based art.
I'd probably translate Art to idle Skilled Labor. Our Clerks, scribes and such seem to count under Art value as well, since projects which do writing consume Art.

[*]Mysticism: This represents the accumulation of knowledge about how the world works. It is currently measured in priests, knowledge, and sacred art. We lose this by making our shamans or knowledge busy and put to practical use.
For instance, Training Blackbirds or Carrion Eaters cost Mysticism because we need to dedicate shamans to making sure their lore is up to date and generally handle the training regime, but with the Library, the shamans can get back to work once they teach the Blackbirds how to do stuff, because senior blackbirds can read and the shamans only need to act to create more than passive training would do.
 
So are we just ignoring how WHR means the more econ you have the less chance there is of taking Martial damage?
Overflowing econ means that we get to smack the Hath and Nomads down more easily when they come, we need every advantage we an take
I don't think there is a possible way to overflow econ here.

You're ignoring province actions that will want to expand econ slots and not spend econ, and that we can influence what the provinces do by talking about things, like, saying.

Oh boy, it would be lovely for the provinces to main a new settlement in the eastern hills or black river if they think it's viable and safe.

Seriously, there are extra actions our provinces can take.

Side note, provinces, I also would not be against sailing missions or trade missions. Exploration and intel gathering should be important, but they can probably be done mid turn if nothing comes up.
 
[X] [Value] Spread value (+Hero Generation)
[X] [Main] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement - south-eastern Redhills

As usual, I think the anti-heredity faction is more than a little reactionary (also, to prempt any misunderstandings, I'm not pro-heredity). My analysis is:
  • Heros are really REALLY good.
  • Confucianism was moderately above average as spiritual systems go.
Still, I understand that anything with a whiff of heredity will always be rejected by this thread, so not going to push much.
 
I don't like the new value - AN just told us that our lack of such values has, on multiple occasions, allowed us to avoid civil wars. I don't think increased Hero generation is worth giving that up.
As for the other actions, our Econ value is directly linked to our Martial value. We're about to get into a fight. I definitely think we should be taking as many +Econ actions this turn as possible, not just to boost our Martial, but to avoid disaster when we inevitably take Econ damage from fighting.

[X] [Value] Don't spread value
[X] [Main] Black Soil
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy: Balanced
 
[X] [Value] Do not spread
[X] [Main] Black Soil
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Balanced
 
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I don't like the new value - AN just told us that our lack of such values has, on multiple occasions, allowed us to avoid civil wars. I don't think increased Hero generation is worth giving that up.
As for the other actions, our Econ value is directly linked to our Martial value. We're about to get into a fight. I definitely think we should be taking as many +Econ actions this turn as possible, not just to boost our Martial, but to avoid disaster when we inevitably take Econ damage from fighting.

[X] [Value] Don't spread value
[X] [Main] Black Soil
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy: Balanced
No... he said our lack of landgrabbing aristocrats with private armies. IMO this is entirely tangential to that.
Adhoc vote count started by pblur on Jun 11, 2017 at 11:29 AM, finished with 52181 posts and 84 votes.
 
Some old quotes for everyone voting for Ancestral Deeds:


We're currently basically set up to turn that into a caste system. After all, why go to all the work of getting kids to act out so you can declare them half-exiles when everyone knows they're going to go that way because of their parents anyway?

Please consider the costs that will come with that heightened hero generation.

This is a fair point.

Still, I want to do this anyway.

Hero generation is just too good to pass up.

And the half-exiles, caste system, hereditary issue isn't just going away. As I've said multiple times things are still in flux - our civilization is constantly evolving. Even if this does set up a caste system that's not the end of the world because things can still change.
 
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Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by pblur on Jun 11, 2017 at 11:29 AM, finished with 52181 posts and 84 votes.
 
[x][Value] Do not spread
[x][Main] Black Soil
[x][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[x][Secondary] Change Policy - Balanced
 
[X] [Value] Spread value (+Hero Generation)
[X] [Main] Black Soil
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement - south-eastern Redhills

Swapping out the main for one with a shot of winning.
 
Hero generation is just too good to pass up.

And the half-exiles, caste system, hereditary issue isn't just going away. As I've said multiple times things are still in flux - are civilization is constantly evolving. Even if this does set up a caste system that's not the end of the world because things can still change.
Hah.

I'd be entirely unsurprised if a caste system in the background reduced our hero generation, leaving us no better off. Many of our historic heroes came from places that wouldn't have been allowed to succeed, given a caste system.

And I wouldn't bet on it going away after cocking up, either - some traits are a lot more sticky than others, and I'd expect caste systems to be one of them.
 
Not exactly, it's more how impressive people feel their own civilization to be.
No.

Prestige is defined by being a widespread perception. It's just that it's hard to differentiate between levels of prestige IC because once you're well known it's sort of like, "Oh... they did another thing. Great." No one would be a subordinate state / just because you think you're great.


AN is unlikely to give us clearcut stat values of other nations because that doesn't make sense IC.
Conversely, prestige loss from a war mission is presented immediately because it would likely occur as the news spreads over a turn of 20 years, and regardless it's just too difficult to track prestige by distance.


It would be cool if we weren't isolationist, but I don't see that happening.

How does Library let us generate infinite Blackbirds?

I think the extra action went away because we switched to a new type of government, though it got replaced by provincial actions. It's rather blurry though.
 
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This time around the vote is a mess. I don't have much time to search out a good argument for a plan and there doesn't appear to be many for once. I will just vote on preference on what I understand. When else are we going to evolve Honorable death anyway?
[X] [Value] Spread value (+Hero Generation)
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement - South-Eastern Redhills
 
Get two more libraries, and More Blackbirds and More Carrion Eaters will net us mysticism. Kinda hilarious, really.
A fantastical collection of scrolls and tablets, this preserves the wisdom of the ages and ensures that not all things must be relearned by each new generation. Whenever spending mysticism, gain +1 mysticism the next turn. Can now build libraries as extended actions.

Library - Any location with a temple and/or True City status can have a library, with each {S} committed consuming 2 Art and 2 Mysticism for 2 progress. Completion grants Mysticism, every 2 libraries past the first increases the Mysticism refund by 1. Valleyhome (0/4)
You think the refund is the one from the main library, rather than referring to the completion bonus?

@Academia Nut plz

We need to make more temples soonish. Maybe we could try to do a double main and make both the temple and the library in Valleyhome at the same time? That would be pretty badass imo. It would cost 8 art, 4 econ, and 4 mysticism, but that just gives us more motivation to art patronage our way to the XS' death.
 
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[X] [Value] Do not spread
[X] [Main] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement - South-Eastern Redhills
 
And the half-exiles, caste system, hereditary issue isn't just going away. As I've said multiple times things are still in flux - are civilization is constantly evolving. Even if this does set up a caste system that's not the end of the world because things can still change.
At the same time, it's the constant, ongoing efforts to defy the natural stratification forces that got us an immensely stable government system with certain minimum qualities for our rulers.

Look at every single hero we've had so far, only one of them emerged from a traditional noble family at all.
Now consider what a Hero must do to gain Kingship?
In our current system, they need to excel. To be the best, to be popular, and then get elevated up the ranks by merit.

But under Ancestral Honor, there would be an additional incentive for those in power to further focus power upon their families, deserving or not, as it ensures their legacy is carried on. The natural incentive for power I feel, is more than sufficient.

Power is it's own reward, even when we had Humility going, people would accrue power because it's good for them. Adding incentives makes it harder to control than it already is.
Prestige is defined by being a widespread perception. It's just that it's hard to differentiate between levels of prestige because once you're well known it's sort of like, "Oh... they did another thing. Great." No one would be a subordinate state / just because you think you're great.


AN is unlikely to give us clearcut stat values of other nations because that doesn't make sense IC.
Conversely, prestige loss from a war mission would likely occur as the news spreads over a turn of 20 years, and regardless it's just too difficult to track prestige by distance.
On the other hand, how do we then, gain Prestige from a megaproject nobody heard about? The Canal was until recently, rarely ever seen by outsiders, and we in turn have never heard of wonders built by others except when we send a trade mission to their woner.

Based on Prestige sustaining our Periphery states then, Prestige should be based on our valuation of collective self image, tradition and culture.
How does Library let us generate infinite Blackbirds?
Blackbirds cost 1 Mysticism. Library refunds 1 Mysticism every time you spend Mysticism. Ergo, Secondary Blackbirds can be taken indefinitely.
I think the extra action went away because we switched to a new type of government, though it got replaced by provincial actions. It's rather blurry though.
AN had said at the time that we've been missing out on actions because we were a very centralized model, even as it let us unlock bigger constructions than we should be able to do for our tech level.
 
You think the refund is the one from the main library, rather than referring to the completion bonus?
I'm pretty sure it's like the Saltern bonus - one for the wonder, increased by another one for every two extended projects.

That said, we're only going to get it once per round - I think we get the refund for having spent at all, not per mysticism spent. Keep that in mind for mysticism-spending Extended Projects.
 
When else are we going to evolve Honorable death anyway?
This is a Fusion(Family Honor + Honorable Death), not quite an Evolution. Sidegrade is the norm for those, where you lose features to gain others.
We know the Nomads Hero Production Trait is probably Family Honor, so the resultant trait is going to be as similar to Honorable Death as Greater Justice is to Greater Good(i.e. not at all).

And for Honorable Death evolution....we get a lot of random trait evolutions. It's just never been rolled yet because evolving Honorable Death requires either a Megaproject or Golden Age trigger, or mass amounts of death
 
On the other hand, how do we then, gain Prestige from a megaproject nobody heard about? The Canal was until recently, rarely ever seen by outsiders, and we in turn have never heard of wonders built by others except when we send a trade mission to their woner.

Based on Prestige sustaining our Periphery states then, Prestige should be based on our valuation of collective self image, tradition and culture.
IIRC, they did hear about it. AN said something about how they heard we completed a megaproject, just like for the vast majority of our megaprojects there've been comments about people hearing we did a grand ritual/etc. And just like we got an announcement that the XS had completed the wall, that the HK had started the Law.

How would prestige let us keep a subordinate state if only us know about our grandeur?

AN had said at the time that we've been missing out on actions because we were a very centralized model, even as it let us unlock bigger constructions than we should be able to do for our tech level.
yeah provincial actions are nice

That said, we're only going to get it once per round - I think we get the refund for having spent at all, not per mysticism spent. Keep that in mind for mysticism-spending Extended Projects.
It would have to be this way for it to not be imbalanced.
 
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