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Paths of Civilization

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pblur said:
Whoops. Fixed.

Thing is, when you pray to something, you're expecting it to act nondeterministically. You expect it to respond to your prayer, and not just carry on like clockwork. That interferes with science if the thing is your representation of the natural world.
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Yes and no. Look at the thing I edited in "possibilianism". It's an interesting thought, and I don't think the only version of a belief structure that let's Scientists believe in God or Gods While still being deterministic. There's one on the tip of my brain that I can't quite remember.

Right now, yeah it's ritual and prayer. But that's all they have. I figure even if we didn't do this with Crow they would still be doing something like what you describe. It's going to take time to overturn this thought matrix. A lot of time. For now ritual and prayer are our ways to store rote information, and by picking Crow + Knowable I figure we will push to learning more and more and more in order to divine his inner workings, which will eventually phase out prayer.

E: Truly though I don't particularly want to start an argument about this.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jun 1, 2017 at 2:14 AM, finished with 44602 posts and 82 votes.
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I don't suppose I can convince all those who did not vote for either Crow or Fythhagyna to switch for Fythhagyna c'mon guys crow will still be represented in the temple but the harvest godess is what we need right now.
 
BungieONI said:
Yes and no. Look at the thing I edited in "possibilianism". It's an interesting thought, and I don't think the only version of a belief structure that let's Scientists believe in God or Gods While still being deterministic. There's one on the tip of my brain that I can't quite remember.

Right now, yeah it's ritual and prayer. But that's all they have. I figure even if we didn't do this with they would still be doing something like what you describe. It's going to take time to overturn this thought matrix. A lot of time.
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I don't have a problem with gods that listen to prayers and intervene. That is (as you observed) inevitable for a long time.

The issue is the we're setting up Crow to be our clockwork god. The god responsible for the weirdness of the natural world. It neatly carves out a piece of our theology into a science precursor way ahead of its time.

But your clockwork god CAN'T be your primary prayer-intervention god. They undermine each other.
 
pblur said:
But your clockwork god CAN'T be your primary prayer-intervention god. They undermine each other.
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Well yeah if you only hold one hypothesis in mind at a time then yes. But if you have multiple hypothesis and don't discard them and test them all thoroughly, you get more in depth information. Praying to the clockwork god, if it really does nothing will eventually be realized to do nothing through testing.

Not sure we can agree though. And I don't have the energy right now or desire to get into something.

I'd like to keep my good mood! :V
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jun 1, 2017 at 2:20 AM, finished with 44605 posts and 82 votes.
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[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

For anyone who thinks having a female main deity will fix gender discrimination.... *points at the ancient Athenians and their warrior goddess complete with truly horrific and entrenched misogyny*
 
BungieONI said:
Praying to the clockwork god, if it really does nothing will eventually be realized to do nothing through testing.
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This step is impossible for them to make for millenia. Until you understand most of the natural world, you can't declare prayer ineffective through testing.

E: I'm fine with you dropping it, but I'll keep pushing my point; I really think we're shooting ourselves in the foot.
 
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Any thoughts on what we will do next turn I kinda want to main an art patronage to see if we can gain better pots so we can muscle in on the Xoh and start a trade war
 
Reader of all said:
Any thoughts on what we will do next turn I kinda want to main an art patronage to see if we can gain better pots so we can muscle in on the Xoh and start a trade war
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I think we need to swap to megaproject support. Working these out by inches is tying us down for way too long, and we're losing a possible secondary each turn from Law while on balanced.
 
DragonParadox said:
[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

For anyone who thinks having a female main deity will fix gender discrimination.... *points at the ancient Athenians and their warrior goddess complete with truly horrific and entrenched misogyny*
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The women in the cult were okay. They were religious icons; celebrities. They were paid for their services, they owned property. It just didn't do anything for the common woman.

So that's at least a few women in the ancient world that that female cult did some good for, even if it didn't lead to widespread equality.
 
pblur said:
This step is impossible for them to make for millenia. Until you understand most of the natural world, you can't declare prayer ineffective through testing.
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You can?

Drop a ball from two stories, count how long it takes to hit the ground, while praying for it to go faster. X amount of time happens.

Drop a ball from two stories, count how long it takes to hit the ground, do not pray. X amount of time happens, if the system is not in someway magical or mystical.

Repeat.

Prayer disproven to have an effect on this particular test. Do that enough times and you run out of tests. And with LoW they have the fully mental matrix to do this.


pblur said:
I think we need to swap to megaproject support. Working these out by inches is tying us down for way too long, and we're losing a possible secondary each turn from Law while on balanced.
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I'm in full support of that idea. Temple done quickly please *eyes the Lowlands with worry*
 
DragonParadox said:
[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

For anyone who thinks having a female main deity will fix gender discrimination.... *points at the ancient Athenians and their warrior goddess complete with truly horrific and entrenched misogyny*
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That is not really why we are voting for her... Well not why I am anyway I am voting for her because she is the most beneficial and easiest to prais among our choices the people will praise her by doing what they are already doing taking care of the land and to multiply a godess of harvest and fertility for me better represents the people as a whole than a hard to understand trickster god.
pblur said:
I think we need to swap to megaproject support. Working these out by inches is tying us down for way too long, and we're losing a possible secondary each turn from Law while on balanced.
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Fair enough as for the other secondary maybe an expand econ to keep the city?
 
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Who would pray about a ball? That's liable to get your ass smote by your god for wasting his time!

No, we need to pray that the harvest is good, or that sickness is cured, or that your enemies don't attack you, and then decide whether the prayer worked or not.
 
BungieONI said:
You can?

Drop a ball from two stories, count how long it takes to hit the ground, while praying for it to go faster. X amount of time happens.

Drop a ball from two stories, count how long it takes to hit the ground, do not pray. X amount of time happens, if the system is not in someway magical or mystical.

Repeat.

Prayer disproven to have an effect on this particular test. Do that enough times and you run out of tests. And with LoW they have the fully mental matrix to do this.
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And then you say 'What a TRICKSTER! He won't let us TEST him. But we know it works because INSERT CONFIRMATION BIASED LIST OF EXAMPLES'
 
Guile said:
Who would pray about a ball? That's liable to get your ass smote by your god for wasting his time!

No, we need to pray that the harvest is good, and then decide whether the prayer worked or not.
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Weird shit happens, and weirder shit has been prayed to/about. Humans have prayed to damn near everything because we are damn weird that way. :V
 
BungieONI said:
Weird shit happens, and weirder shit has been prayed to/about. Humans have prayed to damn near everything because we are damn weird that way. :V
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Right, but note that all of Guiles examples are cases where you'll get a ton of false positives.

In my opinion, we're about as likely to develop atheism as a noninterventionist god from testing. Neither is possible this millenium because most obvious tests are prone to false positives. And those that aren't are fake and trivial enough for a god to ignore.
 
pblur said:
Right, but note that all of Guiles examples are cases where you'll get a ton of false positives.

In my opinion, we're about as likely to develop atheism as a noninterventionist god from testing. Neither is possible this millenium because most obvious tests are prone to false positives. And those that aren't are fake and trivial enough for a god to ignore.
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Since atheism is a religion in its own right...
I do not see its development as overly desirable.
 
Reader of all said:
Fair enough as for the other secondary maybe an expand econ to keep the city?
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If we do Main Expand Econ, and a secondary that uses econ, we should exactly recycle the generated econ slots into Econ. That might be worth doing.

Or maybe Main Improve Festival and secondary expand econ. We'll get closer to the limit on our city, but also closer to golden age (with its free expand econ.)

Edit: I'm going the second for now.
[Main] Improve Festival
[Secondary] Expand Economy
[Secondary] Change Policy (Megaproject Support)

With our provinces doing:
3x [Main] Grand Temple
 
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But back to our more immediate problems:
We do not have Grand Sacrifice anymore.

This makes any stability problems we have far, dar worse than they recently had been.
 
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DragonParadox said:
While some people can treat it like that, and the internet is full of "proselytizing" atheists, it can be a simple disbelief in the divine/supernatural that asks nothing of others.
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Regardless, my point was just that it's not plausible now. Not that it's desirable. (I'm not an atheist myself.)
 
DragonParadox said:
While some people can treat it like that, and the internet is full of "proselytizing" atheists, it can be a simple disbelief in the divine/supernatural that asks nothing of others.
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And it is still a religion in this case, since it is a belief in nonexistence of the gods, one that cannot be proven.

Agnosticism is (arguably) not a religion, but atheism hits pretty much all the marks of one.
 
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