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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

Benevolent would likely lead to a GG equivalent effect, but Alien but knowable is better for innovation.

Shipyards would be very nice.

We have Iron weapons and 2 fortified martial colonies, any new colony we make will need multiple turns to build defenses...turns we don't really have. A RoO will give us crisis resistance which we need.

Any nomads that come can be dealt with a [main] war mission or 2 (with the help of our colonies).

On the topic of the King of Gods...I don't like it. It might mutate into people believing the King should always listen to the shamans, which might definitely create a Church/State unification. While it'd be nice for a king to always listen to advisers, we already elect competent kings. Anyone that doesn't listen to advice will be removed by us.
 
Karugus said:
The Egyptian cults are not remotely comparable to what the Ymaryn have and were far more political.

And that was over a very long period of time, a time that likely will not happen here due to our religion having a different connection to politics and the library right about to be built.
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Our shamans are also active politically.

And everything was twisted and changed - from original crow to Gwygoytha.

So I really do not want to rely on our very rudimentary writing to not get the concept completely warped in a couple of centuries.
 
[X] [Crow] Benevolent

Because apparently some people only read the options and not the actual update, here's the difference between Benevolent and Trickster:
Benevolent - plays tricks on people to teach them and to help the People, even if the tricks can be painful
Trickster - plays tricks on people because he finds it funny

The difference is NOT:
Benevolent - doesn't do tricks
Trickster: does tricks

[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)

The last thing we need is some lower-level chiefs and admins hoarding.
 
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tenchifew said:
Pretty much this.

The god enshrined in our main temple will be our main god in two hundred years or so.
200 years are 8 turns.

I do not want this god to be a connection to our king.

Crow is our main god, he should be the one the great temple is dedicated to.
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Except Crow isn't our main god. He's not the head of a pantheon- he's our creation deity. And that's not the same thing. It'd be like saying Gaia was the main god of the Greeks.

More importantly, we'll have the library well inside of 8 turns.

And it's kinda sad- Crow, the god people deliberately avoid attention from because that's Crow's very nature is having people like you arbitrarily place him as the head of our pantheon simply because he's the oldest.

Crow isn't and was never intended to be a god that's all that actively worshipped. Crow acts as Crow sees fit, that's what being a Trickster entails- and no amount of prayer or worship should change that. I'm far more concerned of shifting our theological understanding of Crow that he can petitioned is more worrisome than Mathulmyn by far.
Umi-san said:
They'd had temples and gods as opposed to spirits for much longer. Look at how political this decision has already become: Where do we put Crow to emphasize his (present) pre-eminence? Is Mathulmyn the King of Gods or God of Kings? Things are already in flux based on peoples' opinions.
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Except we've clearly been told that Mathulmyn is the God of Kings. And the confusion is only more likely going to happen when the only thing they have to tell them Mathulmyn is God of Kings is opinion and oral traditions.
 
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[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
Hello Back again for now.:) So many new stuff and faces sense I been away! been gone because my computer broke and still in repairs. so will not say much because of uncomfortable temp.
[X] [Temple] Mathulmyn
Crow will be honored any way and we could use better harvest pray right now to sooth tensions. quick edit - plus will make forest temple nature themed most likely.
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
Thinking that it could lead to primitive dry dock? maybe ports or harbor which are better in long run.
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
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Andres110 said:
[X] [Crow] Benevolent

Because apparently some people only read the options and not the actual update, here's the difference between Benevolent and Trickster:
Benevolent - plays tricks on people to teach them and to help the People, even if the tricks can be painful
Trickster - plays tricks on people because he finds it funny

[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)

The last thing we need is some lower-level chiefs and admins hoarding.
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First, pretty much nobody is voting for the trickster.

Second, have you actually read the reasoning of others?
 
Money says Occupational Association (d)evolves (depending on views) into guilds in a few generations (with an accompanying intervention vote, of course). I don't like guilds. It promotes super-ultra stratification and elitism.
 
tenchifew said:
First, pretty much nobody is voting for the trickster.

Second, have you actually read the reasoning of others?
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It was a response to some misinformation @BungieONI put out:
BungieONI said:
Well from my reading of it, it was him being a Trickster that lead into love of wisdom. Crow has been neutral for some time. He teaches and you either learn or you don't. I am fine with perpetuating and enhancing that.
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Which was in response to me analysing all of the options.

And yes, I've read the reasoning of others, I just think it's more important to facilitate painful but good/necessary social change than create the natural laws. The latter will come eventually. The former...not so much.

EDIT: The misinformation was that, in context, he was implying that Benevolent vs Trickster was a choice between No Tricks vs Tricks.
 
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Karugus said:
Except we've clearly been told that Mathulmyn is the God of Kings. And the confusion is only more likely going to happen when the only thing they have to tell them Mathulmyn is God of Kings is opinion and oral traditions.
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A temple will not magically develop written traditions. Instead, it will make it clear that this god is deserving of such honors, whereas Crow or whatever is not. This god is thus clearly of grand importance, much like a King, cus he's the King of Gods.

Opinion. Oral tradition.
 
[X] [Temple] Fythhagyna
[X] [Crow] Prankster
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

This temple is going up in our sacred forests during a time of drought. I think having apolitical Fythhagyna the Harvest Goddess center stage feels right right now.
The Prankster Crow vote I just think is funny. He's a Demon God, let the good that comes from his actions be part of the joke.
Increased boat size is also pretty good for marine combat right now, given our plentiful warriors and massed archer fire techniques.
 
[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
Andres110 said:
Did you not read the last update? The difference between "Benevolent" and "Trickster" isn't whether or not he plays tricks, it's whether he plays tricks to help/teach the People or if he plays tricks because it amuses him.
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I did indeed read the last update, and find it insulting to be told otherwise so please stop. There is zero need to get this bent sounding about this particular option.

When we got Love of Wisdom, which was what I was talking about, it was Crow in his guise playing a trick on us and we did not know the reason. Our shamans speculated that it was to benefit us in the end but my understanding was they were not sure. That is the important point to me and by putting him as alien but knowable we encourage them to learn the reasons he might have done so. That's open ended enough for me to be interested.

But I'm not saying that Benevolent is bad, so if I some how insulted you because you read me as subtly dising it or something I... apologize? Not my intent at all really.
 
Rakuhn said:
The God of Kings will likely quickly be turned into the King of Gods, and thus will be used heavily in a form of proto-divine right.
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@Academia Nut if we go with the God Of Kings, will we be able to ensure the temple's depiction heavily emphasizes the advisorial role and the prevention of foolishness? The People already seem to be aware of the distinction between God of Kings and King of Gods and the possibility that it might blur.
 
[X] [Temple] Mathulmyn
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

*Sees paranoia about people picking crow for the explicit reason of being afraid of having anything even remotely approaching a king god.*

Sigh, once again people are picking an option out of fear of other options rather than because they feel it is a good option. I see little has truly changed here.
Candesce said:
What's your opinion of the improved shipyards pick?
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I don't think we even have shipyards yet. It's likely to give us them, so I'm pretty in support of it.
 
[X] [Temple] Mathulmyn
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Found March in the North-East
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
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Just out of curiosity but why don't we dedicate the temple to all our gods like the Temple of the Nines form the Elder Scrolls and then build dedicated temples for each god later on?
 
[] [Temple] Crow

Trickster and Teacher. Emphasizes the pursuit of wisdom and the vagaries of chance.

[] [Temple] Gwy and Gyo

All-father and All-mother. Emphasizes the kinship of all living things and the family structure.

[] [Temple] Fythhagyna

Farmer. Reinforces the importance of agriculture.

[] [Temple] Mathulmyn

The Wise King. Emphasizes the importance of ruling well, though you can imagine the logical consequence of people seeking the shamans to make their kings make the right decision, which is obviously the same as their decisions.

Note that despite people intending no such thing, the chosen one will likely eventually be pantheon head. Fickle memories.
Crow is more likely to be marginalized over time, since he makes people uncomfortable and is himself too close to the half-exiles.


[] [Crow] Benevolent

The universe ultimately wants good things of you, as long as the tribulations pass.
An optimisic view of cosmology, and people will be looking to find the silver lining.
Might help with Stability

[] [Crow] Prankster

The gods are assholes. Just be ready for whatever they do.

[] [Crow] Alien and unknowable

Ultimately inscrutable, this moves towards mystery religion, of secret rituals and divine dictate.
Pretty common, it protects the priesthood from needing to explain much.

[] [Crow] Alien but knowable

The quest for knowledge. We don't know what the fuck is Crow but we're damned wellgoing to keep trying.


[] [Boats] Speed

Naval warfare route. Faster boats fight better at sea.

[] [Boats] Size

Logistics route. Larger boats find it easier to transport men and goods.

[] [Boats] Portability

Land raider route. Portable boats make for easy ampibious raids along rivers.

[] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made

"You know, if you change how you build boats you can build them WAY bigger"
Drydocks as a concept. Build the boat on a dry area, then flood it to move the boat. Now you are no longer capping your boat size by how much you can lift.


[] [Drought] Found March in the North-East

Risks crashing economy if we take another Econ hit. Unlikely, but it can happen when you're at Econ 2 temporarily...

[] [Drought] Ensure proper behaviour (Main Enforce Justice)

Risks overloading Centralization...which we still cannot lower.

[] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)

Well, it's Restore Order. Good for Stability, upsets players.

[] [Drought] Bring more land under cultivation (Main Expand Econ)

Will cause martial overflow next turn from Economy growth. You want this during negative stability?

So my vote:

[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
[X] [Temple] Fythhagyna
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
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[X] [Temple] Fythhagyna
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Found March in the North-East
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
On a side note, I'm still mildly annoyed at how we didn't go for the large immigrant wave last time. That was by far our best opportunity- we had excess stability and a heroic admin to deal with the problems.

We obviously can't go for it this time and I don't think we're going to get another opportunity like that one for dozens of turns the way we've been voting.
 
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