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Paths of Civilization

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Choose a trait for boats
[] [Boats] Speed
[] [Boats] Size
[] [Boats] Portability
[] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made

Speed = something akin to Roman oar vessels or tiny catamarans. It opens up great advantage in marine war, scouting, and trade of compact luxuries. It sucks at transportation.

Size = something akin to barges. It opens up great advantage in terrestrial war, any kind of trade, and the transportation of materiel and personnel. It sucks in regards to marine war and is more vulnerable to piracy.

Portability = we still have smaller boats, but now they're carry-able, so we can go higher up rivers and through marshes and etc. Only very good if we're planning on invading the Hathatyn, MW, or nomads through their river systems. Possibly like viking longboats; possibly like saxonic shield-boats; possibly like hide canoes.

Where they are made: As far as I can tell, this either opens up shipyards as opposed to a cottage industry approach, or lets us make them inland. The former speeds up developments and the rate at which ships are built. The latter increases the number that can be built and reduces transportation issues.
 
Diff Checker
Academia Nut said:
General
Diplomacy 13 (+0+3) [+1]
Economy 4 (+5+1) [-1]
Econ Expansion 5 (+1)
Martial 10 {11}
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Diplo 9 (+3) [+1] -> 13 (+0+3) [+1]
The 13 is as expected, from the trade missions and saltern. The (+0+3) is 1 from boats, and then either 2 from vineyard and none from center of trade, or 0 from vineyard (due to drought) and 2 from center of trade (1 for each luxury we lead in)... @Academia Nut ?
Econ 8 [-1] -> 4 (+5+1) [-1]
8 -1 (True city) -1 (Temple) -2 (Boats) - 1 (Vineyard) = 4. Then, the expand econ and the immediate econ from boats got delayed, and the extra +1 is from end-of-turn from boats.
Econ Expansion 6 -> 5 (+1)
6 +1 (True City) +1 (Temple) + 1(Boats) -1 (vineyard) +1 (vineyard) - 4 (Expand Econ) = 5, then plus 1 end of turn from boats.
Martial 10 {13} -> 10 {11]
From loss in econ.
Academia Nut said:
Stability
Stability -1 (anxious)
Legitimacy 3 (max)
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Stability -1 -> -1
So we gained from justice, didn't lose any with the occupational change, but then lost from the drought
Academia Nut said:
Organizational
Centralization 4
Hierarchy 6
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Centralization 3 -> 4
Only gained one cent from the justice action
Academia Nut said:
Cultural
Art 13
Mysticism 7 [-1]
Prestige 14
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Art 14 -> 13
-1 art from temple.
Academia Nut said:
Centre of Trade (CA Linked)
By controlling access to resources you can get other people to come to you with their resources, enriching you.
Pros: Gain bonus Diplomacy a turn for dominating certain forms of trade, early access to more advanced mechanics
Cons: Others entering your markets prompts anger and strife
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Oooh, fancy...
Academia Nut said:
Occupational Association
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New social concept, as expected
Academia Nut said:
Stallions [Main] Expand Forest, [Sec] Trade Mission - Eastern Nomads, [Sec] Survey
Wall [Main] New Settlement, [Sec] Build Walls, [Sec] Trade Mission - Northern Nomads
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Interesting choices

Academia Nut said:
SilverModerateHath, MW, Xoh
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I can't tell if its impressive that we're at moderate with only the one mine (due to our iron tools) or that we're only at moderate, with our iron tools :p
Academia Nut said:
SaltLeadingNone
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Salt remains our specialty
Academia Nut said:
Fine DyeLeadingHathatyn
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Some competition on dyes, but the snails are still awesome
Academia Nut said:
Who shall receive central placement within the new temple?
[] [Temple] Crow
[] [Temple] Gwy and Gyo
[] [Temple] Fythhagyna
[] [Temple] Mathulmyn
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Eeesh, no clue...
(Fake edit: There were some good arguments about wanting to cement Mathulmyn as "dont let the king fuck up" instead of letting them turn into "the best king, worship and fear them" like with many religions
Academia Nut said:
What is the nature of Crow?
[] [Crow] Benevolent
[] [Crow] Prankster
[] [Crow] Alien and unknowable
[] [Crow] Alien but knowable
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I'd lean towards the last, i think it fits well with our love of wisdom
Academia Nut said:
Choose a trait for boats
[] [Boats] Speed
[] [Boats] Size
[] [Boats] Portability
[] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
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Is portability "can move boats overland easier", "can be in different water environments", or "can carry more stuff"?
Academia Nut said:
Drought!
Payouts delayed, stability lost
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Damn D=
Academia Nut said:
Drought response?
[] [Drought] Found March in the North-East
[] [Drought] Ensure proper behaviour (Main Enforce Justice)
[] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[] [Drought] Bring more land under cultivation (Main Expand Econ)
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Again, many good options...
Academia Nut said:
Refugee Response?
[] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[] [CA] Open the borders and granaries (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[] [CA] Bring in as many as possible (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, other effects)
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Probably just the first...
 
[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

First stab. I like big boats because they really help our logistics.
 
Therealtahu said:
The trade status makes the Hathatyn look really tasty. It's also interesting how we have almost no competitors for what we're great at.

[] [CA] Open the borders and granaries (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[] [CA] Bring in as many as possible (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, other effects)

I'm very wary of these two options because of Quality of Its Own. As much as I'd like to take in people, this pushes up our Martial when our Stability is already at risk.
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Yeaaaaaaah.

Any of the options above +2 Econ for a chance at Stability loss mean we have a minimum of 13 econ. 13/3 = +4 Martial. Sooo... no thanks? getting to around 15 Martial without venting it is not something I want to do, and we kinda do need to RoO here. Ehh I guess to anyone voting for the higher options if you're going for the higher Econ hits, go for March, so we don't have the Martial malus trigger again.
 
Who shall receive central placement within the new temple?
[X] [Temple] Crow

What is the nature of Crow?
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable

Choose a trait for boats
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made

Drought response?
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)

Refugee Response?
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
[x] [Temple] Gwy and Gyo
[x] [Crow] Prankster
[x] [Boats] Speed

[x] [Drought] Found March in the North-East
[x] [Drought] Bring more land under cultivation (Main Expand Econ)


[x] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
[X] [Crow] Benevolent

Crow's nature as a benevolent being is necessary. It means that even though there might be strife, it's for the good of the people in the end. It's what allowed our breakthrough into Love of Wisdom to be theologically excellent. Making him alien but knowable makes it so that instead of "he threw us into that mess to make us love wisdom because wisdom is good for us!", it becomes "he caused strife for reasons we may or may not know and which may be bad for us".

Prankster means "he threw us into that whole mess because it was funny to him, not because it's good for us".

Benevolent allows for social advancement because despite the strife, it's ultimately for the good of the People. It also means that our shamans do not become alienated by either worshipping a malevolent deity or by worshipping a weird deity. They worship someone who helps the People. Since they're the ones that do science, this is important.
 
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pblur said:
[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

First stab. I like big boats because they really help our logistics.
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Well proto shipyards, as I think the where they are built option entails, is a foundational tech needed to become a true naval power. Innovation is going to boom in shipping if we have a port structure to build and maintain them in. It basically is a all around great improvement to all of the boat stuff. Still need to find cite for that one sec...
 
Honestly, although many in the thread don't approve of it, we need to fight in a war against a semi-peer oppenent just to bleed off martial.
If the rumors of the Nomad-apocalypse is true it might be just what we need to drain some of our martial.
Failing that we need to stick our into the lowlands grinder so we can get bits of it chewed off.

Also without the greater good our stability choices have gotten much riskier.
 
@Academia Nut
The [CA] vote consumes econ expansion slots, correct?
Any hints as to whether it'd be easier to combine our new CA value with another or reject it wholesale? I don't really see any easy combinations but also we've only once rejected a value and it took a long time (Sacred War).

Timewinders said:
Why did we lose greater good?
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It got eaten to make Greater Justice. Our stolen traits tend to do that (it's happened many times before, we've just managed to pick up GG a bunch since it was the only one available at the time from that source)
 
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tenchifew said:
I fear Mathulmyn would transform fast into divine right.

Such concepts are very malleable to change, and usually not to a good one.
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Except the more you write a concept down, the less malleable it is. Mathulmyn is hands down, the most popular and most oft prayed to god. He's going to warp if we don't clearly and plainly clarify his role and domain, and the best way to do that is to enshrine it in a temple a lot of people are going to see and the shamans can consult.

This issue isn't going to simply vanish if we don't enshrine him, and it's only going to vanish if we either remove him entirely or clearly delineate his role.

It's like being unwilling to write down a preexisting law because you're afraid it will be misinterpreted later.

Candesce said:
What's your opinion of the improved shipyards pick?
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Honestly? That also has a lot of potential, especially when combined with our recent adoption of occupational association. I wouldn't mind it, but there's still limits on what simply 'moar boats' can achieve compared to better boats. More boats, for instance, does very little to make longer voyages easier.
 
Karugus said:
It's like being unwilling to write down a preexisting law because you're afraid it will be misinterpreted later.
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It's enshrining a god with the first ever temple, granting them pre-eminence. Ra still fucked over the previous dominant god despite both of them having temples, priesthoods, and written hymns describing their attributes.
 
Andres110 said:
[X] [Crow] Benevolent

Crow's nature as a benevolent being is necessary. It means that even though there might be strife, it's for the good of the people in the end. It's what allowed our breakthrough into Love of Wisdom to be theologically excellent. Making him alien but knowable makes it so that instead of "he threw us into that mess to make us love wisdom because wisdom is good for us!", it becomes "he caused strife for reasons we may or may not know and which may be bad for us".

Prankster means "he threw us into that whole mess because it was funny to him, not because it's good for us".

Benevolent allows for social advancement because despite the strife, it's ultimately for the good of the People.
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Well from my reading of it, it was him being a Trickster that lead into love of wisdom. Crow has been neutral for some time. He teaches and you either learn or you don't. I am fine with perpetuating and enhancing that.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on May 31, 2017 at 7:54 PM, finished with 44218 posts and 20 votes.
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BungieONI said:
Well from my reading of it, it was him being a Trickster that lead into love of wisdom. Crow has been neutral for some time. He teaches and you either learn or you don't. I am fine with perpetuating and enhancing that.
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Did you not read the last update? The difference between "Benevolent" and "Trickster" isn't whether or not he plays tricks, it's whether he plays tricks to help/teach the People or if he plays tricks because it amuses him.
 
[X] [Temple] Gwy and Gyo
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Ensure proper behaviour (Main Enforce Justice)
[X] [CA] Bring in as many as possible (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, other effects)
 
[X] [Temple] Mathulmyn
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[x] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
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Umi-san said:
It's enshrining a god with the first ever temple, granting them pre-eminence. Ra still fucked over the previous dominant god despite both of them having temples, priesthoods, and written hymns describing their attributes.
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The Egyptian cults are not remotely comparable to what the Ymaryn have and were far more political.

And that was over a very long period of time, a time that likely will not happen here due to our religion having a different connection to politics and the library right about to be built.
 
Karugus said:
Except the more you write a concept down, the less malleable it is. Mathulmyn is hands down, the most popular and most oft prayed to god. He's going to warp if we don't clearly and plainly clarify his role and domain, and the best way to do that is to enshrine it in a temple a lot of people are going to see and the shamans can consult.

This issue isn't going to simply vanish if we don't enshrine him, and it's only going to vanish if we either remove him entirely or clearly delineate his role.

It's like being unwilling to write down a preexisting law because you're afraid it will be misinterpreted later.


Honestly? That also has a lot of potential, especially when combined with our recent adoption of occupational association. I wouldn't mind it, but there's still limits on what simply 'moar boats' can achieve compared to better boats. More boats, for instance, does very little to make longer voyages easier.
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Umi-san said:
It's enshrining a god with the first ever temple, granting them pre-eminence. Ra still fucked over the previous dominant god despite both of them having temples, priesthoods, and written hymns describing their attributes.
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Pretty much this.

The god enshrined in our main temple will be our main god in two hundred years or so.
200 years are 8 turns.

I do not want this god to be a connection to our king.

Crow is our main god, he should be the one the great temple is dedicated to.
 
[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Found March in the North-East
[X] [CA] Open the borders and granaries (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
Karugus said:
The Egyptian cults are not remotely comparable to what the Ymaryn have and were far more political.

And that was over a very long period of time, a time that likely will not happen here due to our religion having a different connection to politics and the library right about to be built.
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They'd had temples and gods as opposed to spirits for much longer. Look at how political this decision has already become: Where do we put Crow to emphasize his (present) pre-eminence? Is Mathulmyn the King of Gods or God of Kings? Things are already in flux based on peoples' opinions.
 
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