Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
it's probably good land for other kinds of trees or farms, too, imo.
Fermenting knowledge: the history of winemaking, science and yeast research
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Fermenting knowledge: the history of winemaking, science and yeast research
- Location
- The People's Saltern
If we really have to, we can replace our [][Main] Great Temple with something else at the cost of not having a chance of triggering Symphony. Besides, it's not really 5 actions this turn since combining provincial Secondaries into Main counts as one action.
Okay, long one:
A) Explicitly naive. Currently they assume "just divide it up into rectangles along the current borders and it'd all be fine" and "we probably won't need to recut the districts so often, I mean how much can population move in a hundred years?"
B1) Multiple ways of getting worse have been elaborated. Gerrymandering is one, resistance to redrawing the districts is another, social stratification as people get more picky about having people live in their neighborhoods who don't share their political views, district rivalries and conflicts.
-It can be fought, but it requires the ones abusing the system to fix the system. Which is going to be difficult, because it'd always be the individually suboptimal solution to reduce your personal ability to gain power.
B2) Citizen outrage does not enact social change until revolution happens, unless citizen outrage can change the people in charge. As the Geographical system allocates political power by the people put into power by the Geographical system, it will be highly resilient to outrage as a mode of change. Historically public outrage has changed geographical systems about...never, at least until people are outraged enough to start a civil war. And said people usually don't WIN a civil war, because the warriors are loyal to the ones in charge.
B3) We explicitly do not have a census system, if we did the tax reform would have been far easier. Currently we have people cashing in their work allocation for their ration allocation. Semi-informal, which works mostly due to being rural, and a clerk can feasibly personally know everyone who's claiming from them.
B4) Explicitly does not reassess at all near regularly enough. Cities are new. You have people working based on the reassessment schedules of small villages, where the population might fluctate by 10% over three generations, rather than the city, where the majority of the population had moved, expanded, declined or otherwise changed every generation.
C1) Outrage is not a viable means of combating inequalities, because you are relying on those without power to act at great personal risks against those with power. A self balancing system is one where everyone acting in their own best interest leads to a situation where they curb each other. Organization does it better.
C2) District segmentation of guilds also means that no one guild/subguild has actual monopoly, only local monopoly, which is capable of competing against other subguilds for status in the superguild.
C3) Any guild growing too large would require the ability to accrue massive amounts of individual power in a very short time to fight other guilds seeking to reduce their power. Any one guild growing stronger is a political threat to every other guild, so it's a matter of personal self interest to pull them down or split their power.
C4) This refers to low level disputes. There will be enough emergent disputes that a new subclass of administrators would be needed to arbitrate, unless the King does nothing but royal audiences.
C5) The guilds are not the sole power in play as the chiefs and noble classes would not appreciate having to negotiate with strong guilds for services, and different districts can be easily a few hundred meters away from each other. While certain services such as masonry cannot be feasibly in competition, smiths, carpenters, bowyers and other such artisans can have customers favor someone in another district for better services.
Infrastructure is a point against geographical. Certain districts will be more disrupted by infrastructure or benefits less from infrastructure, and it will be thus in their best interests to move to bar infrastructure development.
Everyone benefits from having a highway nearby, but nobody wants to be the district who has to devote a large amount of empty space to moving the stuff of other districts.
You can see this IRL with pipelines, roads and power lines being forced into inefficient routes because everyone is playing the Not Me game.
Furthermore, by reinforcing local communities, it isolates them into microstates within the city over time. This is a minus point, close knit local communities work in pastoral small groups, but is a toxic phenomenon witin a city.
False here again.
Occupational system power is derived by the number and influence of the people you represent on top of your personal favor and importance.
Geographical system power is derived by the number of districts you represent, on top of your personal favor and importance.
They use the same election system.
Its theoretically fixable, but has become traditional. Only a chief's child has the connections and education to be a skilled chief, but intent will mutate over generations, so it's now Traditional that a chief's child becomes a chief.
The big fight we're having here is to prevent it from being both Traditionally AND Legally set to that.
Hmm, so in a occupational system, overall as you gain seniority you'd at least get to the bottom rung manager at some point in your life unless obviously unfit?
Yeah. It lasted about 2 generations before becoming de facto hereditary because nobody could afford to do it.
Also point of note for the half-exile thing:
-Tanners and other leatherworkers are half-exile only trades because of their work with decay and human waste.
-Smelters and miners are demi-exile(i.e. not actually half exile by deed, but they do a dangerous job) only trades because of the earlier associations with metal extraction being poisonous. It's unknown if this has been revoked with newer discoveries or if it's Traditional now.
-Hospice workers are a mix of shamans and half exiles as they work with the diseased and possessed.
-Asheries(Black Soil manufactories and charcoal production) are a mix of half-exiles and artisans.
-Funeral workers are a mix of shamans and half exiles as they work with the dead.
-Plumbers will have a significant portion of half-exiles in the city to work on the sewer outflows.
As such, while a singular half-exile guild is not a thing, there will be guilds which contain a large proportion of half exiles and thus must champion their positions to do their jobs.
Many of these are professional guilds as well, the work must be done with institutional knowledge.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Eh? I don't know, my impression was staff may portal near a spaghetti post after the announcement.
It would certainly make more sense.
- Location
- Philippines
Guys does anyone have a map of the Ymarryn provinces?
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
- Location
- Hell
False
We have a trait that specifically nullifies this and have ripped up and relaid infrastructure before.
This would be an extension of that.
- Location
- Philippines
Thank youI do.
No west wall march cause this is kinda old.
With our new trait I can't help but feel that the number of half exiles will increase I mean most of our values can be summed up to the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few and half exiles are needed by the many to do the jobs no one likes it could result in them being treated worse than they already are.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
Wouldn't you have to redraw the districts every time you ripped up and relaid the infrastructure? That vote would seem to make it less likely for us to do that going forward, therefore.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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- Lickwidget
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- She/Her
Ehhhhh... maybe.
With the timing that we did with building walls before possibly going geographical, it is quite likely the borders are going to be partially delineated by those walls. What this means is that things inside the walls and districts can be torn down and rebuilt without redrawing the boundaries.
It's basically a case of what is the boundaries anchored on. Maybe we can ask AN?
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
We aren't going to go into a discussion on Marxism, are we? I'll just refer you guys to that post AN wrote up some three hundred pages back or so.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
The district is a square or rectangle. But then we pull down all the buildings and rebuild them in a circle (or whatever; I'm no city planner). Any way I look at it, the district boundaries would either need to change or accept that they just have fewer people now, and the power structure changes either way.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
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- She/Her
*wiggles hands*
*shrug* I really don't know. Gonna ask though.
Hey @Academia Nut, if we went with geographical and the buildings inside a district were all torn down and then rebuilt would the borders be redrawn?
How about if it was only a portion of the buildings?
Econ slots I'm now treating as a stat since we need to keep close track of them, and they're a major limitation due to our lack of expansion space and how we now have data on what modifies them. Not how [Secondary] forests are now net negative total econ+expansion slots without a city involved.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
Then again, AN did say that one of the drawbacks of the form would be that the People DON'T redraw the boundaries as often as they should.
So you could get a district where the people were largely displaced to make way for a public or government building, but the district chief keeps the same level of power he did before, as if he has hundreds more voters than he actually does.
So you could get a district where the people were largely displaced to make way for a public or government building, but the district chief keeps the same level of power he did before, as if he has hundreds more voters than he actually does.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Quite possible. I'm pretty sure from what AN told me here that the size of the district is irrelevant to it's number of votes.
See... where did I put that... here.
So our geographical is purely by population inside district bounds so when those hypothetical folks are moved out by a government building, they will be tracked and the decrease in population should be noted, reducing the district chief's power proportionally.
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Guile
Having a really great time right now
Not really? No census tech and AN's comment that the districts won't be redrawn as often as they should suggests that there's not going to be much tracking and changing power structures going on.
Maybe once a generation? Or every few generations? Who knows?
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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- Lickwidget
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To clarify to make it clear just to avoid possible confusion. When AN says that they draw the boundaries to have equal populations in districts that tells me that district shape is less important than the population inside the bounds. This indicates to me that population is the important variable here and not land area when it comes to how many votes a district gets.
Of course you are totally right. Even though it will work by the above system of population number => vote number if they don't keep good track of the people then it of course will fall apart. It's also not that difficult to fix after some thought, once it is spotted.
Once a generation sounds about right, or after a really big event. Another thing to note is that we have something of a primitive proto census. I'll go looking for it but it was a recent offhand comment.
- Location
- Philippines
I am not voting for geography but isn't one of the prime kick starters for invention need so if people find a problem it is likely they will develop a solution.
Which doesn't work when the problem is systematic, it's not a side effect, but the intended outcome.
Banking on a census is a point against, because it'd be 200-300 years before we get it done, by which point we'd either have found other solutions or abandoned it again.
Occupational does not distinguish between Notable occupations and not.
Remember, this replaces the Clan unit as the organizational unit, you cannot have people left out of the system at all.
As Umi-san already addressed, Upper Class are the current castes with authority:
-Warrior/Chief-Nobles
-Bureaucrat-Nobles
-Shamans
Lower Classes are everyone else, from mason to farmer to carter and trader. Or prostitute and entertainers since populations of those are going to soar from having a city.
Guilds(which as had been stated repeatedly) are for all labor. Everyone gets one.
So lets take it from the top level and spawn a crude non-exhaustive subdivision tree:
-Admin Chief
--Clerks
---Scribes
---Accountants
---Stockpile workers
--Messengers
---Foot couriers
---Chariot couriers
---Boat couriers
--Traders
---Caravaners
----Carters
----Negotiators
-Spirit Chief
--Priests
--Shamans
--Hospices
--Corpse-workers
-Artisan Chief
--Masons
---Brickmasons
---Stonemasons
---Plumbers
--Potters
--Carpenters
--Weavers
--Leatherworkers
--Smiths
---Coppersmiths
---Blacksmiths
----Weaponsmiths
---Silversmiths
-Farmer Chief
--Foresters
--Fishers
--Hunters
--Farmers
--Herders
---Horse-herders
---Cow-herders
-War Chief
--War-shamans
---Blackbirds
---Carrion Eaters
--Charioteers
---Chariot drivers
---Chariot warriors
---Chariot archers
--Archers
--Spears
As you can see, the entertainers are left out entirely unless we create a NEW top tier chief(which is not unknown), or shove them in under one of the existing ones(would be funny if they got flagged under Spirits, but probably not happening).
We'd also see some jurisdiction fun, as you try to classify people straddling divisions.
Ease off on the hyperbole and strawmen please.
The argument is that each faction will seek to consolidate itself and splinter others at the top level, but that the lower levels of each faction benefits from consolidating others and splintering self to get a greater influence on the top.
All this is in turn counterbalanced against the Chief families and the Shaman representatives, so they need to work together if either the chiefs or the shamans do something stupid.
Counterbalancing forces is how you establish a political system that doesn't skew hard. It has to keep its own elements in check as a natural consequence.
Except this is neither a permanent union nor a guild.
They don't need to justify their own existence when their existence is set by law and they derive their profit from the work of their members.
See above.
Guilds are better because it increases representation from traditionally marginalized elements of society. They ensure that trades which are only required in small quantities per geographical district get their needs addressed by aggregating them into a voting body so that they have a small say instead of no say at all.
It's not Spaghetti posting is explicitly against chopping up points into incoherent sections and fragmentary points that cannot be meaningfully replied to(which yes, isn't really spaghetti, because who the heck chops perfectly good pasta into small pieces?).
Guile
Having a really great time right now
Possibly! Or it'll be too advanced for their primitive brains and they'll just suffer and squabble endlessly (until and unless we repeal the thing and try something different, like we did with the last two).
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Found it.
Not quite a census at all really, but the bolded indicates that we do keep track of people, what their jobs are, where they live in the city. That is a useful resource and means any look into something like what you propose may happen is actually possible.