BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Thanks for setting me straight on the half-exile thing Umi.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
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- Original
It costs 2 stats to make 2 stats, though I guess it technically is still positive thanks to the city refunding the slot it takes.
I'm not really against it but I just see Study Forest giving us far better results since our trait makes study actions super-powered in exchange for its massive downside, so we should grab as many studies as we can.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
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- ꙮ
Too much effort. No offense, but this line of discussion doesn't seem super impactful and thus important to my worked-out-an-hour-and-a-half-ago-just-ate-now-wants-to-sleep brain. The whole geographical/occupational argument should be viewed in light of its effects on infrastructure and technological spread and dev, as well as how it either builds communal bonds among people or eases cross-communal ties/relations between people. This discussion is essentially whether or not half-exiles is an occupation or not. @Academia Nut Are half-exiles going to get a half-exile guild thing?
I probably did, similar to how you appear to be missing mine. Your point appears to be that a bunch more representatives will be added to the ones we already have. My point is that this will only occur for the half-exiles if they're considered to be an occupation rather than a punishment.
What may happen is that going geographic will result in smaller, more tightly knit communities who are in turn overseen by people who are lower in power and thus closer to the community and thus more approachable when issues of unjust sentencing arises, meaning that lobbying can be done by individuals rather than through a guild. Previously this would be limited to family clans, and if an entire family is just made of half-exiles they're probably not going to have much say. Meanwhile, if a half-exile builds up a reputation as a pretty decent person in the community and this is known, it's somewhat easier to fight unfair sentencing from above. Though obviously there can be pushback against these lower level managers, similar to how there can be pushback from other guilds/castes against the half-exile/pariahs.
You mean stats as in actions, right? It costs 1 econ + 1 secondary action to return 2 diplo, making it on par with, say, expand settlements if one ignores econ slots as a value.
We can study vineyards later, maybe. I'd just rather open up new resources now so that they can tick away and provide their benefits sooner rather than later.
@BungieONI np, though I think you probably knew most of it.
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Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
it also helps1 with the crime problem in cities!
1: in that it has a postive2 effect
2: in that the amount of crime added is a postive number.
...
Apparently reading the post you are quoting is also too much effort, that or you are deliberately straw manning.
I will state it clearly. my point is not that half exiles will get representatives it is that occupational representatives may cause a values development which may let The people actually recognise the issue with having a minority that is systemically disenfranchised.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Well back when the option first appeared in <Quiet tensions> there was text saying that it would probably improve them.
Right... aha! Here:
- Location
- United States
Ok, i've seen a couple people worry about losing the vineyard so i'll just say it.
The vineyard is not time sensitive.
This quote here proves it. We'll only lose the vineyard option if we build over it.
Edit: Also, the introduction of stronger alcohol will just as likely lead to incidents during festivals. It won't guarantee a boost to parties.
The vineyard is not time sensitive.
This quote here proves it. We'll only lose the vineyard option if we build over it.
Edit: Also, the introduction of stronger alcohol will just as likely lead to incidents during festivals. It won't guarantee a boost to parties.
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Umi-san
Procrastinating.
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I'm kind of confused if your first sentence is in response to what you actually quoted or just, like, the same as your second paragraph. Tbh I'm kind of skimming replies at this point and am probably going to sleep in like... 2 more back and forths.
Do you mean minority as in the racial/social minorities who are perpetually discriminated against through harsher sentencing? Or minority as in the group of people who are made a group of people as a result of that sentencing, and who are systematically disenfranchised in order to enact the punishment for that sentencing?
neither is study forest or expand forest
aka it's not time sensitive it's action sensitive, similar to expand forest, because the province in that area might build over it if it's never actually exploited and enough other expansionary actions are taken.
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pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
You are missing a very serious point of order here that I have repeatedly tried to get through to you.
The half exiles are still at liberty of self determination. They have the ability to say 'no' and leave. They are not bought and sold. They have ownership of self.
If we are going to say that people buying or working off their freedom is tantamount to slavery, what do you call a prison system? They might not be forced to work, but they have basically no freedom for however much time they are sentenced.
That is their payment.
Ok, now for this point I've apparently been missing. The jobs slaves do are just the ones that regular people don't want to do. This should be obvious, but those same jobs exist in regular society too. I've done them. Somebody has to. Having someone who has committed a crime be punished by working the shit jobs? Not a bad idea for a society that doesn't have money, because somebody has to do it. It is a punishment. Yes, in other societies, the slaves do it, but it is not a punishment for them, it is just the work they get because they have no choice.
What you are repeatedly ignoring in your quest to classify slavery as a matter of the type of work being done is that it isn't a matter of the work someone is doing. It is a matter of their free will and their ability to choose not to do that work. It is a matter of the conditions that led them to that work.
That's a very theoretical liberty, there.
I mean, they'd arguably even have that liberty even if they were slaves, you know?
The threat of starvation is as much a chain as any made of iron.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
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- ꙮ
I'm not missing it, I just don't see why it matters.
Half-exiles are not at liberty of self-determination. Their fate is decided by the law/local chief. They don't have the ability to "say no and leave" as there is nowhere for them to go. As AN said, no one knows that other places are different, and chieftains are loathe to take in randos who weren't sent through proper channels, will be a burden on their resources and time, and based on their status as half-exiles are likely to not be the best people. They are not bought and sold, they are sentenced and assigned. They possess ownership of self, but that means nothing when that self is thought corrupt and currently bound.
Slaves could buy themselves free; half-exiles need to work themselves free. There is little difference.
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Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
I ama be honest but in least your in a 3rd world country, your shitty jobs are not Shitty, at least not compared to the half-exile a nigh underclass in the copper age... well iron age for us
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
I mean the de-facto hereditary caste with minimal political power created by a systemic weakness in the legal system.
Well once again your actively ignoring the question I asked of you. Why quote and respond if what your responding to is irrelevant to your actual response?
The closest thing I can think of that qualifies is your suggesting the half-exiles are what is getting guilds. That or the unassimilated new migrants. Your modeling is divorced from the economy your applying things to.
Your arguing this system will splinter into countless factions by design.
Permanent Unions are in fact employers... of the mediators and the ever growing support staff. The workers they claim to support are the income stream and their customers. Funny thing is the employees of the PU end up with salaries with one to two extra digits tacked on. Even long after they run out of real problems to solve they stick around by making things up and tieing up all resources till the company/industry they get involved in collapses.
---
Basically, you seem to be arguing that guilds are better because the lower classes (which aren't defined) get involved in politics. District governments are worse because they can't subdivide and splinter.
This is what inspires the checks and balances reactionary response. The first step to dealing with a problem is knowing its there in the first place. Technically this governmental change is disposable via letting the True city status laps and the populous disperse. Technically.
In addition to realizing that these issues exist... the idea of a census is a major result of this... though it doesn't work without a library to store data in so it can be tabulated.
I'm confused by this response. Lower classes... like What? The shamans? The farmers that exist outside the city, so aren't involved? The military? What lower classes are you talking about? Skilled labor is what guilds are for in the first place, that would be the middle class.
The closest thing I can think of that qualifies is your suggesting the half-exiles are what is getting guilds. That or the unassimilated new migrants. Your modeling is divorced from the economy your applying things to.
So your arguing that the best idea is to create monopolies in a communal economy? Your arguing to set things up to utterly shatter the current economy
Your arguing this system will splinter into countless factions by design.
So your agreeing that guilds are a tumor that metastasizes?
Permanent Unions are in fact employers... of the mediators and the ever growing support staff. The workers they claim to support are the income stream and their customers. Funny thing is the employees of the PU end up with salaries with one to two extra digits tacked on. Even long after they run out of real problems to solve they stick around by making things up and tieing up all resources till the company/industry they get involved in collapses.
...and making a new political class that exists to create more of itself is good why?
That is also true of a Guild. The real difference is that
Entertainers were pretty much the single lowest class of people. Until the modern age they were an occupational failure state. People thought Nero was insane for wanting to be a stage performer. That is ignoring the enforced audience thing.
---
Basically, you seem to be arguing that guilds are better because the lower classes (which aren't defined) get involved in politics. District governments are worse because they can't subdivide and splinter.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
I'm gonna rejoinder with a job I had sampling shit from water treatment plants. But yeah. Fair point.
Also changing vote, because apparently no one wants to change our policies.
[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[x] [Secondary] Build Vineyard
[x] [CA] Xohyssiri
[x] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
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Umi-san
Procrastinating.
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You appear to be treating hereditary half-exiles and non-hereditary half-exiles as the same thing. This is erroneous.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Sorta. I'd forgotten the details about the who would do the checking thing.
It's been a long freaking time since this particular subject came up.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
@Necratoid
You may want to spoiler the response to V, as it may be interpreted as pasta posts. There was a announcement against breaking up someone's post to respond line by line.
You may want to spoiler the response to V, as it may be interpreted as pasta posts. There was a announcement against breaking up someone's post to respond line by line.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
Hey void? All spaghetti is pasta, but not all pasta is spaghetti.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
@Necratoid
The lower classes not the lower class. I.e. everyone but the chieftain clans. I.e. the proletariat, but not the bourgeoise.
The lower classes not the lower class. I.e. everyone but the chieftain clans. I.e. the proletariat, but not the bourgeoise.
- Location
- United States
I'm pretty sure the only thing that'll cover it would be a settlement, so I don't think we're in imminent danger of losing the vineyard. I don't really care either way if we build it though.
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Isn't the distinction in whether the clauses are distinct enough to merit breaking up?
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
They are all noodles.
i detest those wishy washy flour, they go everywhere when i try to eat them.*hides