EDIT: Actually, I'm not really clear how the clan system has to lead to hereditary nobility. Clans will always be powerful, they're powerful now, but we elect all our leaders at every level!

I believe the "issue" is choice of candidates are almost always filled with people from established families. So voting Green/Red/Blue is sort of pointless as they all represent groups with vested interest, instead of the marginal or less fortunate people.

(I'm supportive of hereditary by the way, it's sad that people want CHANGE.)
 
All politics will be corrupt or virtuous depending on the People who make them up. Instead of drastically changing our entire way of life like either of the two winning, 'better' options, we could just stay the way we are. You know, the system we ALREADY took the stab hit on and have spent a turn and a half working the bugs out of.

People didn't like the new system because it shook up the foundation of our people - family ties. What do you guys think turning people into guilds or district politicians will do?

EDIT: Actually, I'm not really clear how the clan system has to lead to hereditary nobility. Clans will always be powerful, they're powerful now, but we elect all our leaders at every level!
as far as I can tell we've worked nothing out, it's just settled down into a mediocre state.

As for the clan issue... it was sorting itself out slowly and painfully, but as best everyone could tell the key was to simply strengthen the clan leadership. While this made the process of transferring clans harder than had originally been envisioned to solve Valleyhome's problems, it would definitely help cut down on malicious abuses from those outside the leadership trying to seize control through gaming the system. However, given the general distaste for the changes, along with several clan leaders expressing anger and frustration over the fact that they had not realized that some of the prior proposals had not been as radical as they had been lead to believe, hence why they had campaigned against them, there was a feeling that these rules should simply be rolled back, at least outside Valleyhome. Of course, uprooting the rules again carried the risk of further social disruption.
 
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Well considering there IS NOWHERE to go, since everywhere else sucks dick.
I say there isn't much choice
Well considering how our system the half-exiles are as close to slaves as can be with out hitting the text book definition of it

You're missing the point. The idea of owning people is not there. That mentality is not there, and that is the key point here. Sure, they get shit work, and likely wouldn't ever leave because everywhere else sucks, but they could. Culturally and morally, those distinctions between ownership and the freedom to leave and crucial.

Let's look at it this way. As a modern person, why is slavery bad? The loss of free will? The loss of self-ownership? The entire idea of buying and selling people? Our society practices none of these.

Think about that. We're pretty far from slavery, especially when our entire society works just as hard as the guys with the shit work.
 
I believe the "issue" is choice of candidates are almost always filled with people from established families. So voting Green/Red/Blue is sort of pointless as they all represent groups with vested interest, instead of the marginal or less fortunate people.

(I'm supportive of hereditary by the way, it's sad that people want CHANGE.)
But currently they're chosen from chief families because those kids spend their formative years learning chiefdom, right?

That feels totally fixable eventually, with public education systems.
 
Pretty sure this pops the True City immediately. +1 Econ slots per Megaproject Action, x5 puts us at 11 econ slots, +1 for the per-turn upkeep puts us over the threshold.

True city comes and goes; if we will keep avoiding doing anything which might pop it, we may as well remove the policies altogether.

Destroy The Law megaproject, because we will never pick any policy bar Balanced because ~True City~.

Remove one of our actions for the next 20-30 turns, because that's what doing Megaprojects long way going to cost.

Remove Symphony bonus, we are not going to use it because True City.


Duck that. It wastes our Civ's ability for concentrated action for...what, 1 Econ slot per turn?
And we can return it after megaprojects too.
 
You're missing the point. The idea of owning people is not there. That mentality is not there, and that is the key point here. Sure, they get shit work, and likely wouldn't ever leave because everywhere else sucks, but they could. Culturally and morally, those distinctions between ownership and the freedom to leave and crucial.

Let's look at it this way. As a modern person, why is slavery bad? The loss of free will? The loss of self-ownership? The entire idea of buying and selling people? Our society practices none of these.

Think about that. We're pretty far from slavery, especially when our entire society works just as hard as the guys with the shit work.
I think your missing the point, They fill the niche Slaves do, they do the things that slaves do, their just treated better, but Slaves are not always treated like shit. Their a freak alteration on slavery but they do the same kind of work and fill a outcasted niche of our society. Basically they do the same thing, they just don't fit the normal categorization of slavery
Hell based on what I get from you, they are basically nothing like prison work gangs and more like outcasted Plumbers and sewer workers
 
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I think your missing the point, They fill the niche Slaves do, they do the things that slaves do, their just treated better, but Slaves are not always treated like shit. Their a freak alteration on slavery but they do the same kind of work and fill a outcasted niche of our society. Basically they do the same thing, they just don't fit the normal categorization of slavery
Hell based on what I get from you, they are basically nothing like prison work gangs and more like outcasted Plumbers and sewer workers
Except then they do enough scut work to regain their purity, and rejoin society?
 
Duck that. It wastes our Civ's ability for concentrated action for...what, 1 Econ slot per turn?
3+ per turn, given what we usually get up to. That's what we get from a new settlement each turn, or better. And doesn't require weakening our defenses, or strain our trails even worse.

It's what's letting us acquire the economy for all those wonders you want.

And it is entirely possible to shift out of Balanced and maintain the City if we put the effort in. We could maintain Megaproject Support + Main Megaproject just fine for a few turns by setting our secondary actions to Expand Economy, so long as we don't have too many econ slots going into the trick.

It's just that's not going to happen when we have so many other things to do at once.
 
[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Build Vineyard
[X][CA] Xohyssiri


*drunken dancing between secondaries*
 
Except then they do enough scut work to regain their purity, and rejoin society?
It would be extraordinarily unpopular and result in about 80% of them being half-exiles again by the end of the year, if the king were even capable of recognizing the problem.

Like, the issue here is the political class using a disliked minority (criminals, or those who can be easily painted of as criminals) as a way of shielding the majority from unpleasant labour, so these policies are ultimately extremely popular where they are used, unless you happen to be someone who is targeted maliciously (and outright malice tends to be relatively rare in comparison to simply cracking down harder than necessary on already marginal populations).

At the current point of time, the People don't have the philosophy to even see any of this as a problem, and thus it would be difficult to get them to a place where reform would even be an option that could be pursued.

That's theoretically what being a half-exile is. You get shit work that is spiritually contaminating to do, but that teaches humility and through the guidance of shamans you may shed the contamination that lead you to half-exile in the first place, and any that you might have accumulated through your work. Even within the half-exiles there is a gradation, and while some are unfairly denied getting out, there are those that are assigned the less awful shit tasks for good behaviour, both for the stated reasoning of lessening the additional purification they need, and because it encourages cooperation in general for there to actually be an out from the system.

It's just, you know, sometimes the parole officer decides that he wants someone outside his immediate circle to haul literal shit than he wants to actually fairly assess your case.

Ah, but that's the thing: the kids aren't half-exiles, it's just that its extremely easy to recast them as half-exiles once they reach adulthood if the local authorities decide that they want to do that. Because they often aren't treated particularly fairly, all the chiefs need is to get them to lash out once when they're young adults (like that's uncommon) and then hit them harder with punishments than is entirely necessary or even recommended.

There's basically a lot of stuff that is made to work most of the time, but that also has a malicious usage that not only has immediate consequences, but also has long term compounding effects. Like, thus far the People have managed to avoid some of the worst effects of polygamy both because a man having more than two or three wives is almost unheard of, and even two wives is quite rare and mostly among the most politically active classes for the purposes of securing alliances. Communal property has helped a lot by not producing an unreasonable number of heirs to divide property and create conflict points, but the Stallion Tribes are honestly going to be the nucleation point for a number of social problems as they are the spearpoint of interaction between the People and other cultures. The People don't really do any wife stealing, but their relative strength, success and theories of war and justice means that they tend to end up with a population lacking most of its adult males in need of resettlement, and the social structures to support large numbers of children as a group, so there is an obvious combination of good traits leading towards a long term disaster.

Since it would be an in-universe concern, the next few kings may wish to figure out how to integrate the March sooner rather than later. *cough**cough* Admittedly, figuring out how to do that is one of those flailing in the dark things currently.

It happens but oftentimes the chiefs of the places they might run to don't want to integrate someone new into their food distribution budget, and if no one wants to take you in then running away like that can be considered grounds for full exile since you obviously don't want to be a part of the People anyway. At the very least pulling a stunt like that might get you literally branded a troublemaker. It also involves running away from what friends and family you might have. Most importantly though, most of the People have no idea that the other parts of their culture are different, so for the average half-exile, what is the point in changing locations?

@Ghostdevil Greece/Rome's approach to slavery is divided into war slaves and debt slaves. The latter is presumably what you're referring to, and closely approximates the HK's approach to slavery (which is a result of our intervention with the WC). The former is essentially what the XS practiced when they were the DP, though by now they're something more like egypt's approach to slavery which, IIRC, had far more bought than captured slaves.

While slaves of both types could theoretically buy themselves free, this depended entirely on the largesse of their owner for war slaves and on lack of corruption for debt slaves.
 
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[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order x2

I'm going for Occupational not because of the specific grievances I have with geographic or anything, but I think it potentially has immense synergy with Symphony. By having our cities organized by occupation (in a format that explicitly isn't fucking Guilds, which I'm sick of hearing about) we can focus on ensuring greater interdependence between our new Not!Clans. Chances are, clans were big enough to have a modicum of versatility and that most clans could afford to simply operate internally for the most part. We can see this in how our domiciles are set up, how our family units typically operate, and how our society reacted to the stress of cities. By ensuring that people have to interact beyond the Not!Clan, we can foster an even greater sense of community and commonality reinforced by Symphony.

Geographic is further reinforcing the idea of distinct self-contained communities that make up the city as a whole, and while Occupation isn't going to revolutionize this overnight, it's going force more interaction beyond the clan model we were reliant on before.

To further reinforce this, Occupational is going to foster it's own semi-hereditary elite, it's just that they'll have a more coherent constituency to represent and will further foster a non-aristocratic/military path to power.

AN described it as essentially, the Managers are backed by tradition and popular acclaim, the Managers decide the Directors, the Directors decide the Mayor. What this means, is that while it will foster a degree of hereditary, it will be a relatively low-level hereditary class with the ears close to the ground of their constituency that then proceed to elect their actual representatives from amongst themselves. There's a degree of separation to be sure, but we honestly can't expect something remotely similar for hypothetical geographical elections considering the constituency is much less coherent. Worse case we get a super early proto-bourgeois class to counter the traditional nobility, but this pathological hatred for anything remotely similar to Guilds is kinda of getting irritating.
 
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[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order
[X] [Secondary] Restore Order x2

I hope we get the GG back. It has saved us so often.
 
Now if only we had something that might lead to the belief that every role in society should have a say...
I don't believe that half-exiles are an occupation so much as they are a punishment that theoretically a member of any occupation can be assigned to.

If a half-exile is unhappy with their status they just need to work harder to get free from it. Look at Xolifar, the XS immigrant potter. He worked his way out of the punishment for fighting within a month! Your corruption must run deep if you've been a half-exile since your teens, and are still one a decade later.
 
While slaves of both types could theoretically buy themselves free, this depended entirely on the largesse of their owner for war slaves and on lack of corruption for debt slaves.
Well we were assuming that our people were pure and dandy and Half-Exiles were merely misguided temporary roles, so I was assuming the same for the Romans and greeks
 
Oh look at all the people venting their anger in the thread. Poor thread.

Have some nice images.




[X] [CA] Xohyssiri

[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Build Vineyard

I want The Vineyard because it is a time limited thing. Eventually through simple human population growth that area will be overtaken by other purposes. Plus happiness through moderate drink should arise, and wine can actually be good for you in small amounts. So Happiness + Health = Yay we be getting it on like rabbits! Plus more health bullshit opens up eventually.

[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)

This was a toughy. I've spent days considering the issues brought up in geographical vs occupational, since the initial vote I made for Adoption patch job went through and caused problems.
I drew on these things said by AN:
Dissolving was perhaps the wrong word, in that it would be more "Inside the city limits clan affiliation has no administrative power and another system takes over". For the People living long term in the city this would result in de facto having no clan over time, but they could still theoretically claim their ancestors affiliation or just use the normal adoption mechanisms if they moved outside the city limits.

Geographical would have started off with the district chiefs (similar to clan heads and village chiefs) being selected via the pseudo-meritocratic but mostly nepotistic methods already in play, but the process would be much more noticeably unfair to the population. District leaders would be equivalent to clan leaders or village chiefs.

Occupational would sort out the number of layers based on population, meaning that it would also partially be a geographic division. And yes, those lower down in the hierarchy would vote on who to move higher up the hierarchy, until eventually you would have a Valleyhome Mason Chief, who might be second only to the overall Mason Chief in terms of representing masons in the kingdom.

Exactly what the option says. Valleyhome only.

Clarification: the voting within the occupational administration is exactly the same as the voting you already use.

It's managers getting the job of manager by tradition, acclaim of peers, and appointment by the managers, who then vote on the director who votes on the mayor who votes on the governor who votes on the king.

It's complicated enough that it would take a while to be figured out, and no, there really isn't a solution at this level of development.

No.



They're going to make the initial mistake of just drawing them around current simple borders and call it a day for the most part.



Honestly, this is another thing they're going to screw up by not assessing frequently enough. At least not before you have a proper census running.



Basically it was so good because it hit so many of your traits that it got boosted from okay to awesome.

Ehhhhh... depends on your point of view.



Probably the artisan advisors would be drawn from the leadership of these groups more frequently.

Initial organization would be that districts would be mostly squares and rectangles attempting to capture about equal population per district.

The cost of this vote for geographical is immediate unfairness to some of our population. The potential to evolve into serfdom if we don't watch it. The potential for futzing with the boundary lines.
Some have brought up that with this option the injustice is more obvious and will be dealt with, due to the transparency of the system. I consider this something of a neutral result, the injustice can and will probably happen as it would with any system but it is a little nice to see it so we can deal with it.

The benefits are that it is simple. It is hard to truly screw up. The problems inherent in the system when we put it down are in large part solvable by techs we already have or can readily develop. Futzing with bounds are a difficult problem to the modern day, but with modern experience as players and a lot of time it is fixable. The districts will initially be delineated as equal as possible in population by WoG. So some of them will be different sizes, but they will all have the same population. Nobles having more votes than the lower classes will be moderated for now. It will also encourage a sense of community among the populations of each district, which plays nicely with our Symphony trait. We had a Justice trait evolution recently and with the Enforce action we are doing some problems will be caught immediately and nullified.
 
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri

[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Build Vineyard
[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)

The Vineyard is a time limited thing
 
Well we were assuming that our people were pure and dandy and Half-Exiles were merely misguided temporary roles, so I was assuming the same for the Romans and greeks
That's how debt slavery was initially approached, as a way to work of weregild or accidents, but - as with the much later European indentured servitude and modern prison sentences - it is easy to find excuses to increase the debt and thus the time of your servitude if the local magistrate is corrupt or busy.
 
While slaves of both types could theoretically buy themselves free, this depended entirely on the largesse of their owner for war slaves and on lack of corruption for debt slaves.
None of that ever seemed to come up in-quest, and honestly makes me feel a little bit worse about the People now that I have learned it.
 
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But currently they're chosen from chief families because those kids spend their formative years learning chiefdom, right?
That feels totally fixable eventually, with public education systems.

Yes the clan candidates tend to have better education due to accumulated wealth and learning opportunity. The issue is that some voters have very dim view of the established families (nobles), since they are more successful at integrating them-self into a government; which leads to complacence and corruption that brings down said government.

Parasites they say, even if i don't agree with that notion. But Aristocracy (noble rule) corruption and ambition does have noticeable impact on governments even though Ochlocracy (mob rule) and Plutocracy (wealthy rule) are about equally destructive.

As for public education systems, i can't find any way of implementing it since even Song (both) China at it's height can't afford it. They are literally awash in gold and silver (thanks to expansive world trade) with massive educated class and still can't sort out the issue of unemployed intellectuals. Constant nomadic issues doesn't help the slightest.
 
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