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Paths of Civilization

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hylas240 said:
If we switch to a mega project support policy we can leave the Temple to our provinces and expand forests. They'll likely be able to complete it faster anyways.
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Yes, but then we lose whatever the provinces see would be lacking. In this situation I'm fine with giving up our fine-grained control in exchange for better responsiveness from the eyes on the ground. I also like guaranteeing +4 stats/turn from the Expand Economy, especially since otherwise we'd rapidly lose the True City status.

Necratoid said:
So adding in an institution that is parasitic, even in modern times, is better than one that causes solutions to be generated?

No matter the choice its going to be messy and cause problems. Geographical is likely to be like a terrible rash that can be treated... while occupational is likely to end up a tumor that is near impossible to remove.
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Guilds/Unions are useful organizations. They have their downsides and they have their upsides. Bringing the workers of a given occupation closer together means that improvements spread faster and the necessary resources are more easily obtained.
 
notgreat said:
Reading this I think that Occupational is by far the better choice. It does have a chance of leading to guilds, but with our democratic elections Occupational is more likely to be fair since those working together are more likely to be able to agree on trying someone based on their skill since they'll interact with each other more frequently.
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The problem is that occupational neatly codifies special interests. In the end, raw artisan skill is unimportant for an artisan cheif
 
notgreat said:
Clans - I dread this due to the veekie vote and his proven track record, but I still think that this is best.
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I will freely admit that my record is...notgreat :p
Necratoid said:
So adding in an institution that is parasitic, even in modern times, is better than one that causes solutions to be generated?

No matter the choice its going to be messy and cause problems. Geographical is likely to be like a terrible rash that can be treated... while occupational is likely to end up a tumor that is near impossible to remove.
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You have it the wrong way round. Explicitly.
Academia Nut said:
It's complicated enough that it would take a while to be figured out, and no, there really isn't a solution at this level of development.
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There is no solution at all for that. We don't have the social infrastructure to support an independent oversight committee.

I was hoping the shamans might be objective enough, but apparently not.
 
[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Study Forest

We're building the Temple at the main forest shrine. Studying the forest will provide more detail to include in the construction.
Adhoc vote count started by Killer_Whale on May 30, 2017 at 9:48 PM, finished with 43629 posts and 48 votes.
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[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
well. here goes nothing. Bring on the Hobo's guild!
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Hangwind on May 30, 2017 at 9:54 PM, finished with 43630 posts and 48 votes.
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[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Build Vineyard
[X][CA] Xohyssiri
 
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pblur said:
The problem is that occupational neatly codifies special interests. In the end, raw artisan skill is unimportant for an artisan cheif
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Not any moreso than geographical representation. Occupation's interests lie with their occupation. Geographical's interests lie with their location. Either way has its problems.

While raw artisanal skill isn't that important for an artisan chief, it certainly helps. Knowing what the potters need means that the chief potter can get what is needed, and so the good potter who has show organizational/diplomatic skill gets elected. Then they start the hereditary nepotism and eventually their great grand-children have a chance of getting elected to Artisan chief.

That's better than the geographic method where you don't really have a good in, since even at the lowest level it's mostly about your diplomatic ties (usually obtained through nepotism)
 
veekie said:
I will freely admit that my record is...notgreat :p

You have it the wrong way round. Explicitly.

There is no solution at all for that. We don't have the social infrastructure to support an independent oversight committee.

I was hoping the shamans might be objective enough, but apparently not.
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So because gerrymandering will be difficult to get around *in the Copper Age*, Guilds somehow become in any way superior, or more specifically easier to fix? I.e. The other way around? Lol.
 
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Academia Nut said:
Elsewhere, the trade missions the king had authorized were coming back. The visit to the Hathatyn had mostly been an informative one, introducing the People to the kingdom in the southern hills. The city they had in the river valley there was not comparable to Valleyhome, but it was perhaps a peer to Redshore. The land there was also obviously much richer than in the north, with simpler farms able to support a river valley as well as the lowlands farms. The upper hills not being covered in farms also seemed to allow for more quarries and mines to be made closer to the walled city, although the ugly trade of slaves taken from other villages and cities was a definite concern, along with the generally unclean conditions. For their part the Hathatyn were curious about the obviously wealthy outsiders who claimed to come from beyond their backwoods regions and who were claiming responsibility for turning back generations of their minor raiders. Claims of territorial extent to the west were acknowledged, if considered dubiously over large.
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LOL. The Hathatyn considered us gobsmacking big. This means we'll have an easier time of diplo-annexing them.

Unfortunately, they aren't a bunch of a city-states like I thought, so we can't exactly divide and conquer. But I do think they have neighbors. We should find more of them.
 
[X] [Clan] Keep things the way they are (Cements Hereditary Nobility)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Study Forest
 
[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Build Vineyard
[X][CA] Xohyssiri

I mean, I said geographic last vote for a reason, most of those reasons still hold even after Academia Nut's further explanations. Occupational looks vaguely tempting but some of the logic arguing for it seems questionable. (Well, and some of the posters...)

The others are basically self explanatory.
A single Enforce Justice is sufficient for now given other priorities, we can hit it again next turn if absolutely necessary or festival or anything else.
I am not giving up on Vineyards and getting it up and running sooner is better to let slow effects trickle out. The forests can wait, there's not even any reason to drop the Expand Econ cap down. We're now starting to get into the stage of the game where vast forests aren't strictly good as urban advantages start to show.
Xohyssiri for either a $ value or Greater Good back.

edit: But seriously, because it's not getting enough emphasis: ALWAYS EXPLOIT YOUR RESOURCES ASAP. Vineyard = Happiness++ eventually (and really great booze that'll need time to age).
 
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Academia Nut said:
[X] Attempt to capture the errant warriors and then make amends with the Highlanders (-5 Diplomacy, probable war with Highlanders)
snip
No War with Highlanders
snip
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YAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!

HAPPY DANCE. HAPPY DANCE <3<3<3

｢Insert happy dance gif｣

Academia Nut said:
Dissolving was perhaps the wrong word, in that it would be more "Inside the city limits clan affiliation has no administrative power and another system takes over". For the People living long term in the city this would result in de facto having no clan over time, but they could still theoretically claim their ancestors affiliation or just use the normal adoption mechanisms if they moved outside the city limits.

Geographical would have started off with the district chiefs (similar to clan heads and village chiefs) being selected via the pseudo-meritocratic but mostly nepotistic methods already in play, but the process would be much more noticeably unfair to the population. District leaders would be equivalent to clan leaders or village chiefs.

Occupational would sort out the number of layers based on population, meaning that it would also partially be a geographic division. And yes, those lower down in the hierarchy would vote on who to move higher up the hierarchy, until eventually you would have a Valleyhome Mason Chief, who might be second only to the overall Mason Chief in terms of representing masons in the kingdom.
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Academia Nut said:
Exactly what the option says. Valleyhome only.
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Academia Nut said:
Clarification: the voting within the occupational administration is exactly the same as the voting you already use.
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Academia Nut said:
It's managers getting the job of manager by tradition, acclaim of peers, and appointment by the managers, who then vote on the director who votes on the mayor who votes on the governor who votes on the king.
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Academia Nut said:
It's complicated enough that it would take a while to be figured out, and no, there really isn't a solution at this level of development.
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I'll just collect these and leave them here.
I am not decided on the Clan issue yet. Had a talk with people I know, looked over the discussions (if you want to call them that...), and looked over these quotes from AN.

I also did some interesting research on guilds to try and clarify my understanding of them.

Apparently Leonardo Da Vinci got his chance to be great through a guild. Leonardo.

Florence was also the start of the Renissance in the 14th century, a time when the guilds were on the rise. Guilds of Florence.

My vote for now while I think on the matter of clans.

[X] [CA] Xohyssiri

[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Study Forest

I want that forest study too. We have done it once, and this is one of a few keys into more Health bullshit. I want more Health bullshit.

E: Though... Vineyard is important time wise, and can lead to different Health bullshit.

E2:
Spectrum said:
edit: But seriously, because it's not getting enough emphasis: ALWAYS EXPLOIT YOUR RESOURCES ASAP. Vineyard = Happiness++ eventually (and really great booze that'll need time to age).
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Hmm... Happiness... Health... happiness + health = fucking like rabbits...

OK! I'm sold on Vineyard!

[X] [CA] Xohyssiri

[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Build Vineyard
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on May 30, 2017 at 10:31 PM, finished with 43641 posts and 51 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on May 30, 2017 at 10:35 PM, finished with 43647 posts and 51 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on May 30, 2017 at 11:37 PM, finished with 43677 posts and 52 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on May 30, 2017 at 11:49 PM, finished with 43685 posts and 52 votes.
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[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Build Vineyard
[X][CA] Xohyssiri
 
Out of curiosity, @Academia Nut, when you mentioned players being paranoid about what you thought were obvious best choices, was sacrificing our Dilpo King way back when one of those cases?

[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Build Vineyard
[X][CA] Xohyssiri

edit:
SpeckofStardust said:
But there is more of us....
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Individually, but do you think we outnumber all of our neighbors collectively?
 
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notgreat said:
Guilds/Unions are useful organizations. They have their downsides and they have their upsides. Bringing the workers of a given occupation closer together means that improvements spread faster and the necessary resources are more easily obtained.
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Permanent Unions rapidly run out of real issues to address and in order to not dissolve make up issues just to keep the officers in power and resources. This is what permanent unions do. Guilds are an earlier version with more control of their members, designed to keep power, tech, and knowledge in the control of the Guild. The Guilds your championing would not effect farmers or military much, but basically every other form of skilled labor is shaman territory when it comes to research.

-Stratifying by job in a city means that your job is your new clan equivalent.
-Stratifying by location means your loyal to an area as your new clan equivalent.
veekie said:
You have it the wrong way round. Explicitly.
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Geographic means a highly visible problem that draws aggro.
Occupational means it looks fine on the surface while it rots from within.

How exactly do you get the opposite being true?
 
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