Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
i.e. decent odds we'll be grabbing slavery
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
That's half a turn. We're talkimg 10 times that.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
I highly doubt that. Slavery is practically anathema to the people. It wouldn't even make any sense narratively, let alone logically.
The way CA, and LoO work is they take compatible abilities and put them in a list to roll from. We wouldn't just get any random ability.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Aren't Half-exiles basically slaves by another name (albeit with far better conditions than actual slaves, and can be worked out of sometimes)
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Did you read the post I was replying to?
Also, note that the Greater Justice is arguably bending toward allowing slavery to exist - it benefits the many at the cost of the few, after all.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Because of your changed traits, they all now have 2 or 3 compatible traits each. Mostly the ones available have to do with honour or generating wealth.
- Location
- United States
Oh, I thought you were advocating switching policies and double maining the mega projectsLocking ourselves into two mega-projects can't possibly go wrong.
Besides the bonuses we get from a completed mega-project, there's also an opportunity cost of our Main action slot for every turn we leave the mega-project incomplete. We also really need to get started on the Library before we start losing knowledge.
[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
Your reasoning makes sense, though i'm not convinced that we'll lose info soon as we have shamans recording important stuff on tablets.
[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
We have the art to handle both the temple and library, the mysticism to handle the library (when we get the temple finished), though we don't have the econ. Either our provinces will have to do 2 econ expansions or we will.
Either way, leaving the heavy lifting to our provinces is totally doable.
Edit: Looks like the DP have developed a trait for generating wealth
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
*coughs loudly in the XS' direction* so extra
Guile
Having a really great time right now
I'm not looking forward to taking yet another stability hit from throwing out what we've been working on and trying something totally different than anything we've had before that only applies in Valleyhome.Umi-san said:
So could you guys remind me about what's going to change vis a vis the clans when we roll out this geographical politics stuff?
1) AN mentioned a Valleyhome Farmer rep, is he equal in power to our current Farmer rep? The current bunch are just advisors, right? What would his purpose be? Does he get a vote on something?
2) What are the likely changes to clan structure in Valleyhome? Would it introduce different, conflicting loyalties into clan life or is it just for the purpose of keeping track of heads?
3) I remember we were afraid of gerrymandering, i.e. District Chiefs redrawing lines and importing warm bodies to give himself a proportionally stronger vote. Do we have a solution for that? Is there a solution for that in copper age Mesopotamia?
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's complicated enough that it would take a while to be figured out, and no, there really isn't a solution at this level of development.
@Academia Nut, you mentioned earlier that the reason why the Support Subordinate action is so ineffective is because of our poor logistics. Is the problem our infrastructure, our technology, our administrative capabilities or something else entirely?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
All of the above.
[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Study Forest
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
Clans - I dread this due to the veekie vote and his proven track record, but I still think that this is best.
That being said I'm ok with either solution.
Actions -
We've got a spare forest slot and no mines available, we don't need to expand them right now. Instead we should actually freaking take the study action for once. We've done it one time as a province action this entire game, and I really want to take it now that we have massively improved study actions from Love of Wisdom.
The 2x on Enforce Justice isn't that great either since we don't really want that much centralization for the roads factions and it doesn't offer as much stability per action as the secondary.
edit: Study Forest leads to more medical plants (to be later used in Study Health), better ecosystem management, better understanding of the natural ways of things, better poisons, and other such related things.
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Study Forest
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
Clans - I dread this due to the veekie vote and his proven track record, but I still think that this is best.
Reading this I think that Occupational is by far the better choice. It does have a chance of leading to guilds, but with our democratic elections Occupational is more likely to be fair since those working together are more likely to be able to agree on trying someone based on their skill since they'll interact with each other more frequently.
That being said I'm ok with either solution.
Actions -
We've got a spare forest slot and no mines available, we don't need to expand them right now. Instead we should actually freaking take the study action for once. We've done it one time as a province action this entire game, and I really want to take it now that we have massively improved study actions from Love of Wisdom.
The 2x on Enforce Justice isn't that great either since we don't really want that much centralization for the roads factions and it doesn't offer as much stability per action as the secondary.
edit: Study Forest leads to more medical plants (to be later used in Study Health), better ecosystem management, better understanding of the natural ways of things, better poisons, and other such related things.
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- Location
- The People's Saltern
If you didn't intend to change your vote, you just did.Oh, I thought you were advocating switching policies and double maining the mega projects
Your reasoning makes sense, though i'm not convinced that we'll lose info soon as we have shamans recording important stuff on tablets.
[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
We have the art to handle both the temple and library, the mysticism to handle the library (when we get the temple finished), though we don't have the econ. Either our provinces will have to do 2 econ expansions or we will.
Either way, leaving the heavy lifting to our provinces is totally doable.
Edit: Looks like the DP have developed a trait for generating wealth
No, I wasn't advocating two at once. Only to finish the one we currently have. I doubt we'll be able to start the Library immediately after since we'll need to burn Econ slots if we want to keep the city.
As for information loss, we've already had that happen with the Sacred Warding.
No... that was just how some of the more nomad influenced (read northern areas) were treating it. Last check the population as a whole (read the Southern/Central most areas) made it more of a community service through gross jobs thing. You could get out of it by shaping up and fitting in. Teenage rebellion, being immigrants who don't really fit in yet, being malcontents, being general trouble makers and the like tends to lead to doing these jobs as well. Basically if they want to cause trouble then get the gross, unpleasant, but necessary jobs or they can just leave The People' lands. Getting the shaft in the society of The People tends to suck less, standard of living wise, than being an average citizen elsewhere.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Expand Forests
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Expand Forests
- Location
- United States
If we switch to a mega project support policy we can leave the Temple to our provinces and expand forests. They'll likely be able to complete it faster anyways.
Not to mention we can start boosting our stability...which is important right now since we're still fixing the clan issue and there's a huge war in the lowlands that's bound to generate refugees.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Expand Forests
[X] [CA] Xohyssiri
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Expand Forests
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Speaking of support subordinate, is it supposed to only give 1 econ slot back on the main version?
- Location
- New Zealand
[X] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X] [CA] Thunder Speakers
[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Study Forest
@notgreat I heard there was a vote for finally studying TREES? Yes please, I'm in. Also, this will be our first time using a study action since we got LoW. Let's see just how good that bonus is.
[X] [CA] Thunder Speakers
[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Study Forest
@notgreat I heard there was a vote for finally studying TREES? Yes please, I'm in. Also, this will be our first time using a study action since we got LoW. Let's see just how good that bonus is.
- Location
- United States
Yeah, I meant to change my vote.
We don't really need to keep the city status, it'd just be nice. If we start the Library then we can just burn the extra slots on our own however.
We haven't lost the method, just the reason we had started doing it. This was before we had shamans chiseling things down, so I feel this was an exception.
So adding in an institution that is parasitic, even in modern times, is better than one that causes solutions to be generated?
No matter the choice its going to be messy and cause problems. Geographical is likely to be like a terrible rash that can be treated... while occupational is likely to end up a tumor that is near impossible to remove.
Partial analysis, hopefully I can find the time for a full one later since there's deadlines to meet. As usual, trying to keep it objective. There will be a lot of "possibly", "unlikely" and "probably" because it's future guessing:
[] [Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
What likely happens here is:
-Current people in charge will set up the districts. They will naturally set up the districts in their favor.
--Laws may be imposed to set a maximum number of people in each district to prevent deliberate marginalization of people. Highly likely to be set at a fair value due to Justice trait.
---Due to previous choice, the chiefs will be aware of the possibility of forcing district fragmentation by moving people into a district.
----Rules will likely be imposed to limit people changing districts multiple times within a time period. This can escalate to serfdom eventually.
----Walls will likely be built to limit people moving through districts without being tracked. This will reinforce the identity of a district and limit redrawing district lines.
--Laws may be imposed to set a minimum number of people in each district to prevent vote inflation. Unlikely to be set at an entirely fair value as 'no one is harmed' and 'we know better than them what's good for them' are things that happen with the current noble families due to Honor of Elites.
---To counter this, an independent party is required to oversee the districting once mismanagement manifests.
----If chiefs, the problem is not solved, as the same people benefitting from inequalities will be the ones doing the oversight. We don't realize this is a problem culturally yet.
----If shamans, the problem is temporarily solved, as the shamans will be able to offer a "no, this is stupid" vote, but cannot truly oversee things unless they entangle into the politics of it.
-Districts will need to be reassessed regularly to maintain fairness. This requires substantial administrative overhead, and each time will generate opportunities for abuse. This will be a long term problem.
--The initial districts will gain weight of tradition and identity over time. Once set, buildings and walls will be built to reinforce this identity and creating borders. Rearranging districts is more likely to lead to disorder the longer they remain in a given state.
[] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
What happens here is:
-Current people in charge will set up the trade divisions to favor themselves. This will be difficult because the trades are currently not in politics heavily enough, but I'm sure they'll find a way to abuse things eventually.
--Competing loyalties between clan and guild may cause friction down the line, but we have a precedent for that in our shamans that they are supposed to ignore clan allegiances in such cases.
-Trade divisions will face pressure to splinter and specialize in order to create more votes at the chief level. This is mainly a Needs of the Many concern, as the more specific trades are on the listings the better the People concerns will be represented at council.
--Laws may be needed for a minimum number of people in a trade in the city to count as their own guild. We can take this law from the clan laws.
-Specific Trades will exert pressure to resist splintering to maximize the authority of the trade's chief. This is an Honor of Elites concern, as the Practical Potters will want to maintain dominance over the Decorative Potters and the Brickmakers..
--Laws may not be needed for this, as other trades will prefer that they splinter to make negotiations between trades easier.
-Very large trades may need to be split up under artificial lines, districted, or given additional votes to create proper representation. This is a long term problem, as various trades rise in number of people employed, particularly masons and farmers.
-Certain trades do not form proper guilds. The Nobles, Clerks, Shamans and Warriors do not fit in neatly, or generate potential for abuse. Resolution will be a long term problem.
-Border straddling professions will need laws to prevent double voting. A brickmaker is not a mason and a potter at the same time.
--Further laws may be needed to limit people changing their professions during their guild elections so they can vote in multiple guilds.
-A means of adjudicating inter-trade disputes may be needed. Currently the chiefs will serve as arbitrators for disputes about fault and responsibility, but an actual court would be needed once they realize that there's so many disputes that they need someone to deal with this full time so they can DO anything
--This is actually a good thing, since we have the infrastructure to establish civil courts(heck, the name itself is based on this).
[] [Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
What likely happens here is:
-Current people in charge will set up the districts. They will naturally set up the districts in their favor.
--Laws may be imposed to set a maximum number of people in each district to prevent deliberate marginalization of people. Highly likely to be set at a fair value due to Justice trait.
---Due to previous choice, the chiefs will be aware of the possibility of forcing district fragmentation by moving people into a district.
----Rules will likely be imposed to limit people changing districts multiple times within a time period. This can escalate to serfdom eventually.
----Walls will likely be built to limit people moving through districts without being tracked. This will reinforce the identity of a district and limit redrawing district lines.
--Laws may be imposed to set a minimum number of people in each district to prevent vote inflation. Unlikely to be set at an entirely fair value as 'no one is harmed' and 'we know better than them what's good for them' are things that happen with the current noble families due to Honor of Elites.
---To counter this, an independent party is required to oversee the districting once mismanagement manifests.
----If chiefs, the problem is not solved, as the same people benefitting from inequalities will be the ones doing the oversight. We don't realize this is a problem culturally yet.
----If shamans, the problem is temporarily solved, as the shamans will be able to offer a "no, this is stupid" vote, but cannot truly oversee things unless they entangle into the politics of it.
-Districts will need to be reassessed regularly to maintain fairness. This requires substantial administrative overhead, and each time will generate opportunities for abuse. This will be a long term problem.
--The initial districts will gain weight of tradition and identity over time. Once set, buildings and walls will be built to reinforce this identity and creating borders. Rearranging districts is more likely to lead to disorder the longer they remain in a given state.
[] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
What happens here is:
-Current people in charge will set up the trade divisions to favor themselves. This will be difficult because the trades are currently not in politics heavily enough, but I'm sure they'll find a way to abuse things eventually.
--Competing loyalties between clan and guild may cause friction down the line, but we have a precedent for that in our shamans that they are supposed to ignore clan allegiances in such cases.
-Trade divisions will face pressure to splinter and specialize in order to create more votes at the chief level. This is mainly a Needs of the Many concern, as the more specific trades are on the listings the better the People concerns will be represented at council.
--Laws may be needed for a minimum number of people in a trade in the city to count as their own guild. We can take this law from the clan laws.
-Specific Trades will exert pressure to resist splintering to maximize the authority of the trade's chief. This is an Honor of Elites concern, as the Practical Potters will want to maintain dominance over the Decorative Potters and the Brickmakers..
--Laws may not be needed for this, as other trades will prefer that they splinter to make negotiations between trades easier.
-Very large trades may need to be split up under artificial lines, districted, or given additional votes to create proper representation. This is a long term problem, as various trades rise in number of people employed, particularly masons and farmers.
-Certain trades do not form proper guilds. The Nobles, Clerks, Shamans and Warriors do not fit in neatly, or generate potential for abuse. Resolution will be a long term problem.
-Border straddling professions will need laws to prevent double voting. A brickmaker is not a mason and a potter at the same time.
--Further laws may be needed to limit people changing their professions during their guild elections so they can vote in multiple guilds.
-A means of adjudicating inter-trade disputes may be needed. Currently the chiefs will serve as arbitrators for disputes about fault and responsibility, but an actual court would be needed once they realize that there's so many disputes that they need someone to deal with this full time so they can DO anything
--This is actually a good thing, since we have the infrastructure to establish civil courts(heck, the name itself is based on this).