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Paths of Civilization

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random_npc said:
Oh crow, not again! <tax reform flashbacks intensify>
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But don't you like to live dangerously?:ogles:

In this case the complexity is limited to the area of True city, so the population impacted will be much smaller than the tax reforms.:V
Might be better to wait, but with the HK-TH war and us-MW war pending....
 
[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Dissolve clans within the city in favour of occupationally linked administration
[X] [Law] Crackdown on all this crime (Main Enforce Law)
[X] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)

[Clan] - I think that we need to do away with the whole clan concept entirely while inside the city. Making it occuptation based is kinda an extension of our "farming chief/artisan chief/etc" system we have at the top level, and making it relevant at the city level.

[Law] -
1) Going Blackbirds means that next turn is locked in as megaproject+NE march, since we'll be over the limit. That means we'll still be at Stability 0. We already have a large number of Blackbirds, and they don't work as well in the city- they're trained for wilderness stealth.
2) We need stability and more centralization. This solves the latter and has a good chance of fixing the former, and also leaves us open next turn so we can Grand Sacrifice our way to a Golden Age.
 
[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Make clan adoption rules better able to handle situations
[X] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[X] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)
 
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....




HMMMMMMMMMMING VIGOUROUSLY!


Ok I'm going to go with this.

[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
Here are my reasons.

[X] [Clan] Make clan adoption rules better able to handle situations
Good points have been made for this and I think it works very well with Cosmopolitan Acceptance. With this any refugees who come to Valleyhome can be easily accepted into a clan of their choosing. Might cause interesting cultural evolution.

[X] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
This does not threaten the True City status, and let's us do what we want on the next turn. Maybe stability, maybe something else. E: I'm thinking along the lines of clans trying to entice refugees to come to them.

[X] [Diplo] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)
Probably won't win but I think this will be worth a shot and I'm gonna stick with it. Might make an argument later.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on May 27, 2017 at 11:36 PM, finished with 41916 posts and 31 votes.
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@Academia Nut
Can the admin chief(s) or whoever else would be relevant give some more info as to what (they expect/plan) will happen/change with each of the clan options?
Also, on the subject of "whoever else would be relevant, have any of the kings/advisers/chiefs suggested making a "Valleyhome-Admin chief" due to its size, complexity, and importance?
 
[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Dissolve clans within the city in favour of geographically linked administration
[X] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[X] [Diplo] Look around for more reasonable people (Main Sailing Mission)

We have large amounts of unexplored coast along the southern shore of the sea.
Adhoc vote count started by Killer_Whale on May 27, 2017 at 11:36 PM, finished with 41916 posts and 31 votes.
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[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Rework clan foundation and dissolution laws to be more adaptive
[X] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[X] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)
 
Uh, why ARE people backing Geographical? it's the easiest to exploit for politics and increasing social stratification(whoever is in a less influential district will see their districts expanded and their per capita vote shrunk to marginalize them, while whoever are in more influential district will be able to leverage influence to boost their per capita vote by splitting their districts up more).

Simple endstate for individuals doing individually optimal things that leads to socially less optimal things.
 
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Early tally
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on May 27, 2017 at 11:36 PM, finished with 41916 posts and 31 votes.
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[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest
[X] [Clan] Rework clan foundation and dissolution laws to be more adaptive
[X] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[X] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)
 
[X] [Temple] Sacred Forest

I like the idea of a Forest Temple.

[X] [Clan] Make clan adoption rules better able to handle situations

Normally I would be worried about this sort of thing, but our society is very, very good at shrugging and accepting new people. It's what we've specialized for after all. More, this remains useful for the next time we have a wave of refugees. I'm hoping that it will avoid slum sprawl, but I'm really not confident.

[X] [Law] Crackdown on all this crime (Main Enforce Law)

As we learned from the Tax vote, suppression really does make some things easier. Cracking down on the effects of the instability while addressing the root cause should be helpful.

[X] [Diplo] Look around for more reasonable people (Main Sailing Mission)

It's a free Main action. We've not done it in a long time. Let's see what happens!
 
veekie said:
Simple endstate for individuals doing individually optimal things that leads to socially less optimal things.
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I mean...i think all the options are going to do that, to be fair--even the one we're both voting for is likely to lead to "and suddenly clans are super big and clan heads are super powerful"; i'm less worried because there's also incentive to make new clans for council voting purposes, but it is a potential issue (just, you know, the least bad one in my current opinion)
 
To all those who are voting for geographical, you are basically voting to make electoral districts in the city. This is okay, however, it can lead to gerrymandering. Which means that Half-exiles may get shafted by getting put into one district and getting one vote while the nobles have many districts and get many votes.

On top of that it incurs a probable stability hit, since we have been using the clan system for literally a thousand years and that's gonna hurt.

On the other hand changing the adoption rules is going to make integrating refugees much easier. Mechanically it may reduce the stability hit, and we want this for the up coming stream of refugees headed our way from the Lowlands.

It is also an incremental change that will allow for more advancement. It could also lead to some innovation if we crit or even just do well on the admin roll.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on May 27, 2017 at 11:46 PM, finished with 41922 posts and 33 votes.
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Abby Normal said:
I mean...i think all the options are going to do that, to be fair--even the one we're both voting for is likely to lead to "and suddenly clans are super big and clan heads are super powerful"; i'm less worried because there's also incentive to make new clans for council voting purposes, but it is a potential issue (just, you know, the least bad one in my current opinion)
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All of them do yes, but the clan routes will aggregate power by internal forces: i.e. every clan will be doing their own pushbacks and adoptions, whereas the geographical route will aggregate power by top-down forces, which poses a bit of a problem.

Noting that I think we'd change over to something of the sort eventually(geographical districts are common because they are a least-effort solution that rewards those in power), but it needs to be more gradual. A sharp transition tends to bake in a lot of inequalities without checks and balances.
 
veekie said:
All of them do yes, but the clan routes will aggregate power by internal forces: i.e. every clan will be doing their own pushbacks and adoptions, whereas the geographical route will aggregate power by top-down forces, which poses a bit of a problem.

Noting that I think we'd change over to something of the sort eventually(geographical districts are common because they are a least-effort solution that rewards those in power), but it needs to be more gradual. A sharp transition tends to bake in a lot of inequalities without checks and balances.
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There's also gonna be a giant shitstorm as people try to draw the districts. So many arguments over how the borders should be laid out. That's where part of the stability hit comes from, and then the other comes from breaking a system we have had for 1000ish years. The adoption option is a more gradual step towards dissolving the clan structure since it gives more flexibility to clans and people can more freely move between them.
 
[x] [Clan] Make clan adoption rules better able to handle situations
[x] [Law] Restrict access points (Main Build Wall)
[] [Diplo] Send missions to the west (Secondary Trade missions to Hathatyn and Metal Workers)
I don't really have an opinion about the temple site, and i'm not wed to the diplo action but I think just making clans more fluid in the city would be a good fix. Has the smallest chance of blowing up.
 
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