If the testing goes well, I'm thinking
[Main] The Library
[Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[Secondary] New Trails
If it goes badly, we might need to Study Health some and we can Enforce Law instead as a way of getting both stability and Centralization with a single action without the 3 econ cost.
 
[X] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)
[X] Stallion Tribes
[X] This is a step too far (Challenge continues one last turn)
 
Our vaccination program has the same problem with Sacred Warding: it's so successful that people begun to question it. That's how we get Anti-Vaxxer and parents with dubious and unwarranted fears about vaccines.
 
If the testing goes well, I'm thinking
[Main] The Library
[Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[Secondary] New Trails
If it goes badly, we might need to Study Health some and we can Enforce Law instead as a way of getting both stability and Centralization with a single action without the 3 econ cost.

I would much rather stick to double main new trails and plan to go full megaproject on the Library the turn after that. We really need innovation in that field.
 
We also need the vineyard before it's lost.
Yeah, double main trails seems like hte kind of thing that might lead to "hey, does anyone mind if we cut through this patch of land?" "They were going to grow some grapes there i think, but the last king said it wasn't super important, so there shouldn't be a problem if we run soem trails through here"
Mind, thats the kind of thing that AN is usually willing to answer questions about, at least as far as "will the provinces take vineyard if we do double main trails?" "yes/probably/maybe/not likely/no" and "will double main trails leave the vineyard spot undeveloped and ready to use?" "yes/probably/maybe/not likely/no/depends on rolls"
 
Our vaccination program has the same problem with Sacred Warding: it's so successful that people begun to question it. That's how we get Anti-Vaxxer and parents with dubious and unwarranted fears about vaccines.

That difference being that we have a wealth of scientific studies to back up vaccination where the People just have the worlds of the shamans and tradition. Those who doubt the Sacred Warding are far more justified and sympathetic than RL anti-vaxxxers
 
[X] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Forest (???)

Seems less intentionally cruel and/or evil, since testing sacred warding involves seeing if our new citizens can contract smallpox if we introduce them to a patient.
 
I'd be in favor of Main Vinyard Main Trails one turn, double Main Trails the second, then make the Library. It'll take a couple of turns of provinces doing Study Stars to build up the Mysticism needed for the Library anyway.
 
[X] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
 
I'd be in favor of Main Vinyard Main Trails one turn, double Main Trails the second, then make the Library. It'll take a couple of turns of provinces doing Study Stars to build up the Mysticism needed for the Library anyway.

There were some people who considered trying a Double Main Vinyard, after we doubled Main Trails, in order to see if a doubled main land management project can trigger DS, which would be a major boon for us,
 
Yeah, double main trails seems like hte kind of thing that might lead to "hey, does anyone mind if we cut through this patch of land?" "They were going to grow some grapes there i think, but the last king said it wasn't super important, so there shouldn't be a problem if we run soem trails through here"
Mind, thats the kind of thing that AN is usually willing to answer questions about, at least as far as "will the provinces take vineyard if we do double main trails?" "yes/probably/maybe/not likely/no" and "will double main trails leave the vineyard spot undeveloped and ready to use?" "yes/probably/maybe/not likely/no/depends on rolls"
Also, a trail running through the middle of a vineyard might be a very good thing for transport.
 
Actually no, it was specifically that only the women were resistant but the nomads died to the star pox under the DOOM comet like everyone else.
Turns out if only your adult women handling cows are innoculated it doesn't actually DO anything for herd immunity or overall developing immunity at all.
It was new refugees from the nomads who lacked our cleanliness standards who were immune due to touching open sores to cow-pox when milking.
 
Not enough. At least Main, preferably double Main.
I would much rather stick to double main new trails and plan to go full megaproject on the Library the turn after that. We really need innovation in that field.
Any particular reason we need that much new trails? I agree that we need to improve them, but I'm not really seeing any textual evidence that it's a critical problem anymore. The main problem we want to solve now is just the lack of centralization. Trails is a good way to solve that since we want them anyway, but it's not like that's anywhere near as important as getting The Library.

We'll be staying on General, so doing The Library will take a long time. As such we don't actually need more Mysticism first, since the provinces can just Study Stars to pay that cost. Nothing wrong with doing Megaprojects the normal way.

My top two priorities are starting the next golden age and getting The Library. New Trails would be lovely, but not as important as either of those two in my opinion since the trails aren't a time-critical problem whereas the Golden Age gives us continuous bonuses while it's running and The Library is both relevant to the completion of our current challenge and necessary to prevent further knowledge loss.
 
Any particular reason we need that much new trails? I agree that we need to improve them, but I'm not really seeing any textual evidence that it's a critical problem anymore. The main problem we want to solve now is just the lack of centralization. Trails is a good way to solve that since we want them anyway, but it's not like that's anywhere near as important as getting The Library.

We'll be staying on General, so doing The Library will take a long time. As such we don't actually need more Mysticism first, since the provinces can just Study Stars to pay that cost. Nothing wrong with doing Megaprojects the normal way.

My top two priorities are starting the next golden age and getting The Library. New Trails would be lovely, but not as important as either of those two in my opinion since the trails aren't a time-critical problem whereas the Golden Age gives us continuous bonuses while it's running and The Library is both relevant to the completion of our current challenge and necessary to prevent further knowledge loss.
I'm a little concerned about our low centralization. Not enough to double main trails probably, but enough to make sure that main trails happens soon at least once.
 
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Any particular reason we need that much new trails? I agree that we need to improve them, but I'm not really seeing any textual evidence that it's a critical problem anymore. The main problem we want to solve now is just the lack of centralization. Trails is a good way to solve that since we want them anyway, but it's not like that's anywhere near as important as getting The Library.

Currently, it is not an issue, but a gram of prevention is worth a kilogram of cure as they said. Best to nip it in the bud as much as possible.

My top two priorities are starting the next golden age and getting The Library. New Trails would be lovely, but not as important as either of those two in my opinion since the trails aren't a time-critical problem whereas the Golden Age gives us continuous bonuses while it's running and The Library is both relevant to the completion of our current challenge and necessary to prevent further knowledge loss.

I am not in a particular hurry to complete the requirement for a golden age. It gets progressively harder the more we do it. Therefore, it's not a priority for me. Keeping the Ymaryn healthy is.

That said, we're on the verge of overflowing art, which should gain us additional mysticism.
 
I do feel the need to point out that the sacred warding only works because of a large, expensive-to-maintain, and professionally manged reservoir of cowpox. If the reservoir is neglected and the cowpox supply collapses, simply resuming the rituals won't make it work again. The People will have to isolate another strain of cowpox.

They originally got it from a lucky break with the Nomads and their huge aggregate cattle population, but that little bit of information may not have carried through the ages. That's if there are enough Nomads left to begin with. They've been thoroughly wrecked, especially in the People's lands. The ones who survived seem to be in the process of being absorbed by the various settled peoples.

Yes, that's true, however, were unlikely to see the entirety of the cow population within our civ all become infected and gain immunity to cowpox. Reestablishing the ritual population will be necessary, but doable. Even if we do see our entire cow population gain immunity to cowpox, we are taking in nomad tribes that are bringing cattle. They were the original source.


Keep in mind that smallpox immunity is for life. If you start with a 100% inoculated population, and then inoculation rates start to drop as the process is questioned (It almost certainly won't stop immediately nation-wide. Traditions linger and fade), and combine that with the low rates of migration in this era and the fact that the migrants will for the most part have already survived the disease, it could easily take more than a generation for herd immunity to drop low enough for a conclusively compelling demonstration to occur.
Smallpox immunity is for life, but not smallpox immunity acquired through vaccinia.

The acquired immunity lasts for roughly five years. Our population is only immune to smallpox for as long as five years after we stop treatment. After that the immunity decreases for a further ten years. Additionally, even after that ten years there is still some level of antibody present that allows for a possible response, especially if the individual had multiple doses over their lifetime. However, this immunity isn't perfect, especially against the virulence of variola virus.

This is from the CDC page.


Vaccinia (Smallpox) Vaccine
Article:
VACCINIA VACCINE
Dryvax,® the vaccinia (smallpox) vaccine currently licensed in the United States, is a lyophilized, live-virus preparation of infectious vaccinia virus (Wyeth Laboratories, Inc., Marietta, Pennsylvania). Vaccinia vaccine does not contain smallpox (variola) virus. Previously, the vaccine had been prepared from calf lymph with a seed virus derived from the New York City Board of Health (NYCBOH) strain of vaccinia virus and has a minimum concentration of 108 pock-forming units (PFU)/ml. Vaccine was administered by using the multiple-puncture technique with a bifurcated needle. A reformulated vaccine, produced by using cell-culture techniques, is now being developed.

Vaccine Efficacy

Neutralizing antibodies induced by vaccinia vaccine are genus-specific and cross-protective for other Orthopoxviruses (e.g., monkeypox, cowpox, and variola viruses) (16--18). Although the efficacy of vaccinia vaccine has never been measured precisely during controlled trials, epidemiologic studies demonstrate that an increased level of protection against smallpox persists for <5 years after primary vaccination and substantial but waning immunity can persist for >10 years (19,20). Antibody levels after revaccination can remain high longer, conferring a greater period of immunity than occurs after primary vaccination alone (3,19). Administration of vaccinia vaccine within the first days after initial exposure to smallpox virus can reduce symptoms or prevent smallpox disease (2--4).

Although the level of antibody that protects against smallpox infection is unknown, after percutaneous administration of a standard dose of vaccinia vaccine, >95% of primary vaccinees (i.e., persons receiving their first dose of vaccine) will experience neutralizing or hemagglutination inhibition antibody at a titer of >1:10 (21). Neutralizing antibody titers of >1:10 persist among 75% of persons for 10 years after receiving second doses and <30 years after receiving three doses of vaccine (22,23). The level of antibody required for protection against vaccinia virus infection is unknown also. However, when lack of local skin response to revaccination with an appropriately administered and potent vaccine dose is used as an indication of immunity, <10% of persons with neutralizing titers of >1:10 exhibit a primary-type response at revaccination, compared with >30% of persons with titers <1:10 (24). Lack of major or primary-type reaction can indicate the presence of neutralizing antibody levels sufficient to prevent viral replication, although it can also indicate unsuccessful vaccination because of improper administration or less potent vaccine.
 
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I'm a little concerned about our low centralization. Not enough to double main trails probably, but enough to make sure that main trails happens soon at least once.
If you care primarily about centralization use Enforce Law. That gives ~2 centralization per use, as opposed to 1 per trails. Also Main trails doesn't improve centralization any more than Secondary (and we have no clue what the Double Main will do, I suspect it just gives us even more diplo)
 
If you care primarily about centralization use Enforce Law. That gives ~2 centralization per use, as opposed to 1 per trails. Also Main trails doesn't improve centralization any more than Secondary (and we have no clue what the Double Main will do, I suspect it just gives us even more diplo)

Once again, I don't want to use Enforce Law, because I want the opportunity to build Roman or Inca quality roads. Enforce Law doesn't give us the opportunity to benefit from that.

I am up for overflowing our art into mysticism, which Main action will do.
 
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