Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Philippines
They probably do the civ they assimilated/were assimilated by not only have copper tools but saw our boat designs for generations it is highly likely that they do have boat tech if not as refind as ours
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
True but out of all of the naval capable civs we know I figure the tech level goes:
Us (This is very recent because of our iron tools)
Hathatyn (Where we were for some time until we got iron tools)
Metal Nomads (They are assimilating a civ with some probable boat working know how)
Of course our lead is tenuous because we still haven't come up with the really interesting uses for iron tools in boat tech.
[X] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
For god's sake. Everyone but us has it. So long as they have had any contact with our area of the world at all, they will have it.
Endemic diseases do not just go away and come back. They drop to low levels as large portions of the population gain immunity, and then pop up in epidemics during stressful times when herd immunity is low. The only reason we don't have it is because of sacred warding.
Finding people to get it from isn't going to be hard either. It's pretty damn obvious, given that it's a horribly disfiguring rash that appears on the face first, followed by hands and forearms.
- Location
- Philippines
It is still a possibility though a coastal strike should be easily rebuffed due to our ship numbers and experience in naval combat but it is something to keep in mind just in case
Well, it looks like we'll have the world's first anti-vaxxers. And thanks to both it being smallpox and our Honorable Death trait, it's likely the results will be pretty definitive as they die in droves.
Sad, but much more obvious than Sacred Forest where the effects will be relatively minor. Climate change deniers are a lot harder to convince.
Sad, but much more obvious than Sacred Forest where the effects will be relatively minor. Climate change deniers are a lot harder to convince.
Hyacinthium
Writing about sad cannibals as we speak.
- Location
- Bedroom
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
I don't know what to do so I'm going to vote for this due to the last several pages having sound reasoning.
I don't know what to do so I'm going to vote for this due to the last several pages having sound reasoning.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It is always a very wise thing to keep your enemies abilities in mind, even if they are inferior or have difficulty reaching you.
- Location
- Cara Fahd
[X] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[] This is a step too far (Challenge continues one last turn)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
EDIT: changed vote due to new info
This is why I was hesitant of joining this quest. The update time doesn't allow me to pipe in before bandwagons are formed.
Something that you guys seem to have missed:
Seems like challenging beliefs has also the cost of costing centralization. I don't think that the loss of centralization here is coincidental. AN had after all mentioned it was an overly destabilizing process.
In the end WotG may have been a debilitating belief, but it was a belief of the present culture, the paradigm upon which our nation is built. If you challenge it, you challenge the very base upon which our culture is built and it seems then logical that it costs centralization as well as stability, weakening the common ground everyone has which comprises beliefs, yes, as well as, well, everything from our other beliefs, to our government.
So, I'll say enough of challenging it, IMHO it doesn't seem good to me to lower centralization when everything in the neighboring territories seem ready to go down the drain. Just do a Study Metal next turn to continue in seeing if things go worse as well as to prove to the populace that things are fine.
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
EDIT: changed vote due to new info
This is why I was hesitant of joining this quest. The update time doesn't allow me to pipe in before bandwagons are formed.
Something that you guys seem to have missed:
Seems like challenging beliefs has also the cost of costing centralization. I don't think that the loss of centralization here is coincidental. AN had after all mentioned it was an overly destabilizing process.
In the end WotG may have been a debilitating belief, but it was a belief of the present culture, the paradigm upon which our nation is built. If you challenge it, you challenge the very base upon which our culture is built and it seems then logical that it costs centralization as well as stability, weakening the common ground everyone has which comprises beliefs, yes, as well as, well, everything from our other beliefs, to our government.
So, I'll say enough of challenging it, IMHO it doesn't seem good to me to lower centralization when everything in the neighboring territories seem ready to go down the drain. Just do a Study Metal next turn to continue in seeing if things go worse as well as to prove to the populace that things are fine.
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- Location
- Canada
[X] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???
- Location
- Staring into the void
We've been waiting for centralization to drop so we can build more roads without hitting the cap.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
Seeing as 5 or 6 is our cap, that doesn't make any sense. We were at three.
So the opportunity cost of making more roads is too high of a price for you?
Here goes the usual
Economy 12->10
-Festival -2
-Boats -2
-Boats +1
-Study Metal -1
-Study Tailings -1
-Study Health -1
-Expand Econ +4
Pretty much as expected
Martial 11 {15} (partial over limit) -> 11 {14} (partial limit)
We continue to be slightly over martial capacity, and will oscillate back and forth over the line until we evolve the Quality of it's own trait to deal with this sort of thing.
Stability 1->2 (encouraged)
-Festival +1
-Study Metal -1
-Study Tailings -1
-Greater Good trigger +2(reversing a -1 to a +1)
Greater Good kicks ass, *pets Greater Good*
Best foreigner trait ever.
Centralization 3->2
Something dropped this, will be seeking the source as I go through, but we need that Double Main New Trails soon. Guessing it's the antsy Yeomen.
Art 8->11
-Boat Diplomacy overflow +1
-Saltern Diplomacy overflow +1
-Festival Art +1
Nothing odd here
Mysticism 5->2
-Study Stars +1
-Study Metal -2
-Study Tailings -2
Pretty much as expected.
Prestige 8->9
Source unclear, but it looks like it's the war victory(and also defeats will cost it).
Means the lowlanders were already running Prestige based Peripheral States for a long time, we just never got the Prestige to learn about it as our fame are all in permanent works.
Stallion Tribes Econ 5 (+1)->4
-Chariots -2
-Forest cashout +1
Stallion Tribes Martial 10[11]->14[15] - ???
-Chariots +4
-War Mission cost unknown
Western Wall Econ 6->4
-Chariots -2
Western Wall Martial 5[7]->9[10] - ???
-Chariots +4
-War Mission cost unknown
No Canampas?
Though we got ploughs, which is kickass for preparing soil for planting. Less useful for us than for others, since the regular use of Black Soil would produce soil that's relatively easy to break up and plant in, but it's still a massive labor saving.
So they accidentally developed it.
By throwing shit and construction material into the water.
One of those things we managed to lock ourselves out of then, with our cultural angle. Of course, we can use Black Soil, but that's also too valuable to just throw into water for no reason.
Big boon to our northern provinces and marches then. And to the Great Dam(man, the Xohyssiri players are going to be surprised when we, lacking lakes to use for Canampas, built our own)
Also, that's the second time Greater Good triggered on metal. A good sign!
Breeding program started. But still takes a long time to show merits.
But theres a few minerals that can fit the bill.
Fluorite can be identified by its slight tendency to glow in UV light...if we had UV light. It can also be used as lens materials if it's clear enough, and it can be used to make lime for steel production flux...well aside from the bit where it vents fluorine and hydrofluoric acid in the process.
Calcite limestone is much more common, it's distiguishable probably by the sizzling if some wind up in the tailing pits. This is immensely useful for everything, so hopefully we have this instead of the more valuable, but less useful Fluorite.
Also we've found that the slag and tailings have minerals that can be used. Nothing specific, but metawise we know that copper tailings contain enough sulfuric acid to form pyrites out of the leached iron in the ceramic and soil, and it's possible that elemental sulfur crystals might be forming as well.
This mine would probably generate Art/Diplomacy, but since everything is poisonous the stability hit would be nasty.
Hopefully this will persuade people not to use it in makeup and as a sweetener.
Of course, the ties will also break if we don't join them in the next fight.
You need to test bad beliefs and find them wanting, but you also need to test good beliefs and find them pleasing.
Economy 12->10
-Festival -2
-Boats -2
-Boats +1
-Study Metal -1
-Study Tailings -1
-Study Health -1
-Expand Econ +4
Pretty much as expected
Martial 11 {15} (partial over limit) -> 11 {14} (partial limit)
We continue to be slightly over martial capacity, and will oscillate back and forth over the line until we evolve the Quality of it's own trait to deal with this sort of thing.
Stability 1->2 (encouraged)
-Festival +1
-Study Metal -1
-Study Tailings -1
-Greater Good trigger +2(reversing a -1 to a +1)
Greater Good kicks ass, *pets Greater Good*
Best foreigner trait ever.
Centralization 3->2
Something dropped this, will be seeking the source as I go through, but we need that Double Main New Trails soon. Guessing it's the antsy Yeomen.
Art 8->11
-Boat Diplomacy overflow +1
-Saltern Diplomacy overflow +1
-Festival Art +1
Nothing odd here
Mysticism 5->2
-Study Stars +1
-Study Metal -2
-Study Tailings -2
Pretty much as expected.
Prestige 8->9
Source unclear, but it looks like it's the war victory(and also defeats will cost it).
Means the lowlanders were already running Prestige based Peripheral States for a long time, we just never got the Prestige to learn about it as our fame are all in permanent works.
Stallion Tribes Econ 5 (+1)->4
-Chariots -2
-Forest cashout +1
Stallion Tribes Martial 10[11]->14[15] - ???
-Chariots +4
-War Mission cost unknown
Western Wall Econ 6->4
-Chariots -2
Western Wall Martial 5[7]->9[10] - ???
-Chariots +4
-War Mission cost unknown
@Academia Nut
No Canampas?
Though we got ploughs, which is kickass for preparing soil for planting. Less useful for us than for others, since the regular use of Black Soil would produce soil that's relatively easy to break up and plant in, but it's still a massive labor saving.
And we have spoked wheels made with iron tools. An immense advantage here, as a spoked wheel is far lighter than a plank one, and is thus faster, as well as enabling substantially higher ground clearance for chariots at less cost.
As mentioned previously, terrace farming was far easier when you developed it without irrigation. Water load is exponentially harder to cope with if you didn't already have decades of experience dealing with dry terraces...and that's in our valley which wasn't very prone to flooding, and with more rocky and thus more stable soil than the soft alluvial mass of the lowlands.
So they accidentally developed it.
By throwing shit and construction material into the water.
One of those things we managed to lock ourselves out of then, with our cultural angle. Of course, we can use Black Soil, but that's also too valuable to just throw into water for no reason.
Big boon to our northern provinces and marches then. And to the Great Dam(man, the Xohyssiri players are going to be surprised when we, lacking lakes to use for Canampas, built our own)
Also, that's the second time Greater Good triggered on metal. A good sign!
A nice consequence of our chiefs having to consult with their council and thus justify themselves. "Delayed pending more information" is a legitimate reason(and also excuse to avoid politically troublesome choices)
Our boat innovation rolls continue to suck, but we're close to a breakthrough there soonish.
Breeding program started. But still takes a long time to show merits.
No gypsum then. This is tricky.
But theres a few minerals that can fit the bill.
Fluorite can be identified by its slight tendency to glow in UV light...if we had UV light. It can also be used as lens materials if it's clear enough, and it can be used to make lime for steel production flux...well aside from the bit where it vents fluorine and hydrofluoric acid in the process.
Calcite limestone is much more common, it's distiguishable probably by the sizzling if some wind up in the tailing pits. This is immensely useful for everything, so hopefully we have this instead of the more valuable, but less useful Fluorite.
Pretty much as expected on provinces, though the marches are doing a preemptive strike on the rebuilding nomads.
Yes, non-spreading curses. So it's a matter for Honorable Death and The Greater Good for metalworkers, rather than negatively triggering Symphony and Divine Stewards for being a spreading curse.
We've learned tailings are forever, that they can eat stone, and unglazed ceramic simply gets eaten through. That dried acids are relatively inert, but wet acids are nasty as hell.
Also we've found that the slag and tailings have minerals that can be used. Nothing specific, but metawise we know that copper tailings contain enough sulfuric acid to form pyrites out of the leached iron in the ceramic and soil, and it's possible that elemental sulfur crystals might be forming as well.
Galena! This is useful-ish in that it's our first source of silver, and thus the possibility of clear mirrors once we learn to alloy it with copper for strength nad corrosion resistance.
This mine would probably generate Art/Diplomacy, but since everything is poisonous the stability hit would be nasty.
And we have some animal testing prove that lead smelting fumes are poisonous and should be kept the hell away from everything.
Hopefully this will persuade people not to use it in makeup and as a sweetener.
Elders meanwhile are harkening back to the good old days, considering our granaries can hardly be much fuller
And here we see one of the effects of restless warriors/excess martial. People start looking for a fight, and indeed got one on the nomads before they had much cause beyond 'bloody nomads'.
Further south is better for us to disperse cultural impact and influences.
And NomadSon had been fused into the Metal Workers and getting ready for Round Two, along with the Thunder Horse. We're going to need more roads, more walls, though not more armed dudes at least.
Ah, Magwyna's descendants are fully nobility now and maintain ties with the HK, but it's more of a limited aid thing.
Of course, the ties will also break if we don't join them in the next fight.
And thankfully we finished this early with extra Stability. This is going to be a bumpy ride.
You need to test bad beliefs and find them wanting, but you also need to test good beliefs and find them pleasing.
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
It may be due to the two marches deciding to co-ordinate with eachother this turn forming the beginning of a power structure that doesn't involve the heartlands.
- Location
- Cara Fahd
So the opportunity cost of making more roads is too high of a price for you?
Well...
As I understand it, beyond roads, centralization is also for allowing the civ to tank crisis better, and we have a crisis on the horizon with the Lowlands.
Though I have to admit that I can't affirm that I'm absolutely clear on all the mechanics (1.6k pages is a biggie to fish all that info). So if I say anything stupid, thank you in advance for correcting me.
- Location
- From the moon
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
So @Academia Nut can we reasonably assume that since The people have practice with spreading cowpox that we can assume that they will do the same with the (small)Star pox? Or will they disregard that knowledge in a form of rejection to instead see if people will get it naturally.
So @Academia Nut can we reasonably assume that since The people have practice with spreading cowpox that we can assume that they will do the same with the (small)Star pox? Or will they disregard that knowledge in a form of rejection to instead see if people will get it naturally.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
Honestly? We desperately need more roads, or we can use the Enforce Law(I think that's the one) action for generate between 1 and 3 centralization. Seeing as AN stated that it was basically a combination of distance and shitty mid level management chiefs that caused the drop, the enforce law might be the best idea.
1) It's the easiest to prove that it works. We happen to have a supply of people who aren't vaccinated. We have contact with a source of smallpox.
2) We need to prove it, because we are swinging from "Correlation means causation" to "All traditions are false". We need to apply counterswing to the mid point of "Maybe you should actually confirm stuff."
Noting that we don't exactly have a LOT of experience in naval combat beyond skirmishes.
Losing Centralization is GOOD, it's the cheapest stat to raise and has actually been blocking both Roads and Enforce Authority until the recent expansion and war period.
Also if you just Study Metal again, it's not going to solve the problem. You're trying to prove that some traditions have a basis here, now that we've proven that metal isn't cursed in that way.
The Lowlanders fighting each other is hardly an immediate crisis for us.