[X] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)

I am going to choose the sacred warding since it is easy to prove that it works
 
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The essence of the scientific method is "You must always be willing to shoot your sacred cows", i.e. always be willing to challenge your own assumptions.

The malignant form of that is "Sacred cows are meant to be shot", i.e. because something tightly held in the past was wrong, all tightly held beliefs must be wrong.

You're not getting the scientific method anywhere close to yet, but you can see the problem.

if we added salt to the Hathatyn as well as the two main aggressors, would that make it take up another slot or could we just do it? I'm not really clear on how this all works yet.

The salt will generally go to everybody. I mean, theoretically you could do a salt mission entirely to your worst enemy just for the purposes of fucking with them. The two trade missions are a bit more targeted than doing the Bronze Age international relations equivalent of making it rain.
 
[X] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)

Changing my vote again, whee.

Anyway, while there's the possibility that we'd make ourselves a target for the lowland clusterfuck with Salt Gift, I don't think it would alter much-the Highland Kingdom and Xoh trade with us already, they know we're horribly rich. The Thunder Horse might take interest, but so far as we can tell they currently lack the ability to project force into our territories. The Hathathyn are already raiding us. And the benefits are obvious, especially the guaranteed Prestige which we need to get our extra vassals back. This should also hopefully have a similar effect as veekie is hoping for with the trade missions since we'll be sending people all over to areas where smallpox is endemic.
 
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My opinion - we have to challenge one of our useful beliefs to get anywhere.
Letting the challenge go for a turn longer is a trap, and won't bring anything.

We have recognized a false positive, now we need to recognize a true positive.

@Academia Nut

Do the nomads, or, more important, the lowlanders still have the pox scars?

Because if they do, than challenging inoculation together with trading missions to the lowlands will prove inoculation as useful.
 
The essence of the scientific method is "You must always be willing to shoot your sacred cows", i.e. always be willing to challenge your own assumptions.

The malignant form of that is "Sacred cows are meant to be shot", i.e. because something tightly held in the past was wrong, all tightly held beliefs must be wrong.

You're not getting the scientific method anywhere close to yet, but you can see the problem.

So we aren't evolving our belief to the scientific method in one fell swoop. It will be constant work and effort on our part to evolve the trait over hundred to thousand of years.
 
The essence of the scientific method is "You must always be willing to shoot your sacred cows", i.e. always be willing to challenge your own assumptions.

The malignant form of that is "Sacred cows are meant to be shot", i.e. because something tightly held in the past was wrong, all tightly held beliefs must be wrong.
That kind of sounds like if we just leave it here, having successfully proved wrong an ancient belief but not directly testing anything else, we're ALSO kind of fucked.

I guess its a good thing that no one's voting for that.
 
[X] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
 
[X] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
 
[X] Stay at home, garden (Main Expand Econ)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)

I want my True City, and the only way to get that is by eating up out econ slots. +4 econ is a lot, and its overflow is the most efficient way we have of raising our other stats. It leaves us a bit insular, but honestly I'm fine with that. If anyone wants to poke us we strike back, but if not then we just sit back and grow. We have enough ties that we're getting the most important bits of information already, and damn it I want that city.
edit: also just staying out of the upcoming war would be nice, last time we had to suffer a major Diplo loss when the war started if we wanted to stay out of it... We're in a reasonable position if you do want that war though, but I'd prefer to get the golden age, library, and other associated shinies first.

I'm really unsure as to the challenge vote, but I think that testing against Star Pox is likely to be more reliable than testing the forest management since forests generally do ok even without management whereas people dying from the plague really is obvious. Also we likely still have some semblance of Bynwyn's explanation, even if it has mutated and been lost over time.

We've also taken a lot more Study Health than we have Study Forest so we have more domain knowledge and a better baseline to compare against.
 
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[X] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
 
[X] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[X] Stallion Tribes
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Forest (???)
 
[X] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
 
Smallpox doesn't go away on it's own. It's been circulating in their populations on and off, for our part we've only really been infected whenever we went down there.
A citation from reality
Article:
It has been speculated that Egyptian traders brought smallpox to India during the 1st millennium BC, where it remained as an endemic human disease for at least 2000 years.

Overall, it's not leaving on it's own, it just takes a nap every so often.



Okay, so to help elaborate:
-Sacred Forest
--Sacred Forest includes a regime of deliberate reforesting of trees, performing controlled burns of diseased trees, directed harvesting of dead and live wood, as well as replenishing the soil with Black Soil(no longer needed really, by now the black soil layer is likely a meter thick)
--Tree Blight is caused by stressed trees, this depends heavily on the soil quality. As we've been replacing the soil with Black Soil, they are likely to ignore droughts for a long while even if we stop maintaining it.
--A forest without controlled burns with no deadfall harvesting, grown at orchard densities does not automatically become a firetrap. What you need is a few years of very short dry seasons and long wet seasons to build up a backlog of deadfall and debris, then followed by a drought to dry it out. Otherwise you'd only have seasonal small natural fires that burn out the leaf litter without causing lasting damage.
---This isn't happening much because we're harvesting deadfall aggressively to fuel our charcoal demands to feed our iron industry incidentally. And we've also greatly increased irrigation all over.

Why Sacred Forest might stay even if the belief is challenged and fails the challenge is our metal industry demands charcoal, our shipping industry demands fine timber, and so does our bows and chariots. Coupled to Divine Stewards, we'd likely change it to 'useful' plantations instead

But as practical qualities, tree farms for the purpose of timber is distinct from the artificially reinforced ecosystem we create, and more fragile to disasters.


-Sacred Warding
--Sacred Warding comes in two parts, the clinics to maintain the medical services, and the sacred herds we use to pass on the cowpox.
---Clinics provide improved healthcare overall, if you shut down a clinic, it will produce an uptick in minor diseases and all that just by not having people being cared for.
---Sacred herds provide a powerful ongoing supply of veal, which is a quality of life that's not really matched for the era.
--Smallpox remains endemic in the population of the lowlands, though less so in the nomads who don't meet the mmuch. How convenient then, that we can send trade missions right now to the lowlands to pick up fresh samples.
--Vaccination needs to be missed from birth to stop working entirely. How convenient then, that we just took in refugees war-loot who aren't vaccinated, allowing us to skip a generation's wait in testing the theory.

Odds are good that we will keep parts of Sacred Warding even if the process of challenge fails. The clinics provide real and quantifiable effects to population health. The Sacred Herds produce such quantities of high quality meat that people are unlikely to want to stop even if it wasn't a religious duty.

But as practical qualities, we'd likely lose the chain of cowpox if it's not tested adequately against smallpox. Why, after all, should we relay diseases from cow to cow on purpose if it does nothing?
Okay, not much time for a full analysis at present but:
Diplomatic moves?
[] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)

This reestablishes our trade links, so we actually get news of the regional situation, and can react appropriately.
However, the lowlanders have smallpox, we can use it for testing purposes.

[] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)

This impresses the shit out of people, but may also spark greed.

[] Look around for more reasonable people (Main Sailing Mission)

This is good for improving ships, though not super urgent.

[] Stay at home, garden (Main Expand Econ)

Unnecessary if we stay on Balanced really.

Settlement of conquered nomads
[] Stallion Tribes
[] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

Stallion Tribes will further the issue of drifting values again. What to do with migrant populations is to scatter them across a very large area so they don't form a coherent subculture.
Also note that refugees will have no vaccination and that we're at Stability 2. We can tank it

One step further?
[] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)

Okay, smallpox is easily available. It's endemic in the nomad tribes and the lowlands, so we can get a sample to reaffirm how it works.
This is important because people have forgotten why we do it, they think the cows bless us when its the pox.
It is thus easy for the warding to be proven. You take a refugee volunteer NOT to take in the Warding, and then test if they can get infected by smallpox passing into pox regions.

[] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Forest (???)

The Tree Blight is a fungal disease that comes as a result of managed forests being abandoned. The effects are going to be very subtle, and will not be visible for a long time yet.

The original Blight took centuries to actually become a problem.

[] This is a step too far (Challenge continues one last turn)

This is a trap. To evolve Observance you need to challenge both negative and positive values, because that's the only way to know what works and why.

[] Suppress this new movement (+1 Stability, WotG removed, Challenge failed)

This is just a failure.

[X] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)

How do you prove the vaccine works?
By taking in people who are not vaccinated, then introducing them to trade missions to known pox infected regions. Smallpox is all over the lowlands.

AN gave us everything we need to solve this.
Right here, right now
Actually, yeah, it is definitely endemic to their population. It was endemic to human populations in the old world for thousands of years until the vaccine was created. We also have a very selfsacrificing society that does things for the greater good. We have two whole cultural and honor values that dictate it. This is very testable and provable with empirical data. Furthermore the whole thing was first brought about by a scientific method of testing and observance.

Sacred forest, not so much. Sacred forest was brought about by Blight caused by people leaving the forest for more settled areas. This was a fungus that fed on a stress response in the trees; trees died and soil eroded into the sea. People noticed the sick tres and started cutting them away and planting new ones. These days. Our population is too high for the Blight to return. There won't be a significant stress response in a timely manner for the people to observe it properly. It takes decades. They won't really even be able to realize the effects.

Questioning sacred forest is a risk to a pillar belief of our society that we should not be testing until we have better scientific observance abilities. Sacred forest underpins much of the environmental conscientiousness that we see in Divine Stewards. Frankly, I don't want to risk it.

[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)

Also we likely still have some semblance of Bynwyn's explanation, even if it has mutated and been lost over time.

We've also taken a lot more Study Health than we have Study Forest so we have more domain knowledge and a better baseline to compare against.

Hmmmm... Well there is a very good chance I am wrong. These are good points so I'll switch.

"Obviously because it works-"
"Just like mining metal causes droughts!"
"Look, we don't suffer from the star-"
"Same belief, and of course we do, we get it from this stupid rit-!"
"Do you want to be like the lowlanders, where 1 in 3-!"
"Exaggeration! They do-"
"SHUT UP!"
"YOU SHUT UP!"



Depends on the shaman. Most just know that if you perform the ritual, you won't get star pox.



"Sometimes a sick tree is seen and removed, but the People tend to do controlled burns on older sections of forest on a set schedule before setting those parts aside for pasture and tilling for a time before replanting."
"It's a terrible waste I tell you! The Blight is an ancient exaggeration, and the way we treat the forests is unnecessary meddling that does more harm to forest and People than good!"

And this is the final nail in the coffin. Kinda disappointed in our shamans a bit, but they really don't know better and what we are doing here is trying to teach them.

[X] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)

Oooooo. I hope this does not bite us in the ass to hard.
Eggh guess I also gotta learn being okay with being wrong sometime.

Also @Hangwind, I am sorry for what I said.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on May 25, 2017 at 12:40 AM, finished with 40665 posts and 52 votes.
 
[X] Remind the lowlands of your wealth and power (Main Salt Gift)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
 
So @veekie what kind of actions are you going to take if your plan wins, because the actions to challenge sacred forests seem rather obvious e.g. study and expand forest. Like study health seems like an idea but it is the only action that I can think of that will actually help with challenging sacred herds since expand pastures was subsumed by expand econ.
 
Why exactly do you guys want to paint such a large target on our backs let us look at what our civ is Prosperous but the reason why people do not target us more ehether it be for war or for trade is that we keep to ourselves and not flaunt our prosperity if we do this there is a high chance of being forced to take a side in this war which we do not wabt I thought the strategy for a nomaf expantion was to move in once the people fighting are damaged from either war or desease.
 
So @veekie what kind of actions are you going to take if your plan wins, because the actions to challenge sacred forests seem rather obvious e.g. study and expand forest. Like study health seems like an idea but it is the only action that I can think of that will actually help with challenging sacred herds since expand pastures was subsumed by expand econ.
The method to prove that sacred warding works is quite easy to prove simply make a non warded person touch a star poxed person and those are quite easy to find and the effects will be seen within a generation unlike sacred forest.
 
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Arghhhhhh.

[X] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
 
[X] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
 
Sure, it's a risk we have to take. Proto scientific method isn't going to be easy to acquire.
Well, I'm more concerned about causing damage to Sacred Warding because it is harder to repair. At least in my head since it was created by an utterly badass super nerd Hero Bynwyn.

Either forest or warding has to happen but my imagination is more fertile for shit that can go wrong with Sacred Warding.
This is probably some form of bias.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on May 25, 2017 at 12:51 AM, finished with 40675 posts and 53 votes.
 
Bleh.

[X] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
 
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