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Paths of Civilization

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[X] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
 
pbluekan said:
Actually, yeah, it is definitely endemic to their population. It was endemic to human populations in the old world for thousands of years until the vaccine was created. We also have a very selfsacrificing society that does things for the greater good. We have two whole cultural and honor values that dictate it. This is very testable and provable with empirical data. Furthermore the whole thing was first brought about by a scientific method of testing and observance.
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It was not permanently endemic. And we're talking a refugee. Someone who doesn't share our values.
 
[] Look around for more reasonable people (Main Sailing Mission)
[] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
 
pbluekan said:
Actually, yeah, it is definitely endemic to their population. It was endemic to human populations in the old world for thousands of years until the vaccine was created. We also have a very selfsacrificing society that does things for the greater good. We have two whole cultural and honor values that dictate it. This is very testable and provable with empirical data. Furthermore the whole thing was first brought about by a scientific method of testing and observance.

Sacred forest, not so much. Sacred forest was brought about by Blight caused by people leaving the forest for more settled areas. This was a fungus that fed on a stress response in the trees; trees died and soil eroded into the sea. People noticed the sick tres and started cutting them away and planting new ones. These days. Our population is too high for the Blight to return. There won't be a significant stress response in a timely manner for the people to observe it properly. It takes decades. They won't really even be able to realize the effects.

Questioning sacred forest is a risk to a pillar belief of our society that we should not be testing until we have better scientific observance abilities. Sacred forest underpins much of the environmental conscientiousness that we see in Divine Stewards. Frankly, I don't want to risk it.

[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
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As an addendum here, the building of the "Sacred Forest" wonder took over four generations. The people that started it didn't even live to see it finish. It was the entire focus of our society for that time, and became just something that the People did as a regular part of life. There was no empirical process or protocol set aside to do this. It was ad-hoc and learned over a hundred years or more. It isn't someing that can be tested with our people's current mentality. They need to see visceral results. Like, for instance, a guy who doesn't get the warding and is exposed to smallpox gets smallpox.

Simply put, testing sacred forest just isn't possible at the moment, IMO. Sacred warding is.
 
[X] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)
 
NotteBoy97 said:
Yeah and turns last generations which is about 3 decades. So if we start now by the second mid-turn we should be seeing the blight pop up again.
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Actually, we(the players) will see it. The people conducting the study will find it much harder.

I'm not saying it's doomed, I'm saying we currently have all the tools to test the Sacred Warding more reliably than the Sacred Forest.
pblur said:
Veekie's plan to test Warding is based on the speculation that smallpox is endemic in the lowlands right now, and that we can find a refugee to volunteer to be infected with smallpox. Which is deadly.

Neither of those is likely...
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Take history, and biology then, historically smallpox was endemic globally in every single population it was introduced to, though it only become epidemic when mixed with famine or war, or introduced to populations which have no endemic smallpox(i.e. Nomads, Ymaryn).

Smallpox being both survivable and highly infectious contributed to that.
When it reached India, it stuck around for more than two thousand years(and possibly more, its just lacking consistent records).
When it reached China, it never ended.
When it reached Europe, it never ended.

The only ways to avoid endemic smallpox after it's introduction into your population are:
-Low population density(i.e. Steppe Nomads), where the disease will always hit a new tribal population and generally kill them below the sustainability rate.
-Innoculation.

Smallpox in floodplains regions do not die out unless their whole population does.
 
pblur said:
It was not permanently endemic.
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Do you know what endemic means?

Yes it was permanently endemic. The disease existed in almost all old world populations at a fairly low level, and in times of societal stress it would break out into huge outbreaks. These same populations had a low level of immunity to the virus, and the infectious dose for them was fairly high. Smallpox is what killed thousands of the native peoples of the americas because they had no immunity to it whatsoever, and they died in droves. If you were to introduce smallpox to the human population in the first world in this day and age, it would be chatastrophic.
 
pblur said:
Go read the history of smallpox wiki article. Up till th 18th century it was waves of epidemics every few centuries. Not a permanent endemic disease.
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Dude. Seriously. That is what endemic diseases do. They exist in a population at low level and break out periodically due to societal stresses.

I get you're a Wikipedia warrior, but even just my Bachelors says otherwise.

EDIT: Spelling on my phone.
 
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If we send a salt gift, any chance we could swing by the Hathatyn to deliver it too? I still think that would be hilarious.
 
Academia Nut said:
It was in fact as the High Chief was consulting with the other chiefs and the advisory council on where to settle these newcomers that it suddenly all clicked together. There was no permanent solution to the blight, but that didn't matter. They could repair the damage, and even if it might start cropping up again they could just repair it again. They'd already been basically doing the solution for generations, they just needed to realize it and continue it forward. Cut paths in the forests to allow ease of movement, maintaining them to prevent them from growing too much and cutting too wide a swath. Whenever blight emerged, cut down and burn out the forest. Clear plots to farm with black soil for a few years before planting new trees for materials and orchards and manage them. And when those plots grew old or blighted, burn them down to repeat the cycle once more. Add in restoration of the hills with terracing, and careful management of the number of families within the managed zones so as to not overpopulate the region and overwhelm the ability to bounce back, and it would all work.

It wasn't a solution.

It was a system.

Megaproject Completed!
Sacred Forest
While the forests stand and the people care for them, the forests shall care for them. As long as the Sacred Forest is intact, all forests under the control of the People are considered managed, and gain the new action Expand Forest.
(With current territorial control, gain +2 Economy immediately, net +1 Econ this turn from cost of megaproject. Timing consideration: Megaproject completes before paying cost of War Carts)
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@Academia Nut some people are claiming that the Blight in the trees has been cured/removed entirely in the years since we finished Sacred Forest, whilst others are under the impression from the text that it never really goes away. Which is correct?
 
Academia Nut said:
Also, yes, I am currently putting on my best evil overlord laugh. How much will you risk here? Mwahahahahahaha!
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Quite a lot, looking at the tally.
Adhoc vote count started by Killer_Whale on May 25, 2017 at 12:07 AM, finished with 40640 posts and 45 votes.
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Carrnage said:
Shaman Chief: has anyone been floating ideas beyond "foolish old shamans" about what caused the sacred beliefs that are being challenged?
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"Obviously because it works-"
"Just like mining metal causes droughts!"
"Look, we don't suffer from the star-"
"Same belief, and of course we do, we get it from this stupid rit-!"
"Do you want to be like the lowlanders, where 1 in 3-!"
"Exaggeration! They do-"
"SHUT UP!"
"YOU SHUT UP!"

Abby Normal said:
At this point what do our shamans teach for how the sacred warding works? Do they still know its specifically about Smallpox/Starpox? Or has that been lost over the centuries and its more of a general spiritual warding? Have our neighbors had any issues with smallpox, however large or small, lately?
And do our shamans have a plan for how to test either of the teachings, or is it completely "shrug" territory?
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Depends on the shaman. Most just know that if you perform the ritual, you won't get star pox.

NotteBoy97 said:
just to be sure when we are managing forests our people sometimes see the blight before fixing it correct? Do our shamans occasionally see cases of 'starpox' and do our traders know if the other nations have 'starpox' problems? Also if we challenge our megaprojects will the challenge deadline increase or are we only getting one turn?
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"Sometimes a sick tree is seen and removed, but the People tend to do controlled burns on older sections of forest on a set schedule before setting those parts aside for pasture and tilling for a time before replanting."
"It's a terrible waste I tell you! The Blight is an ancient exaggeration, and the way we treat the forests is unnecessary meddling that does more harm to forest and People than good!"
 
OK. So they challenged the Sacred Warding beliefs. Then smallpox finally return to our civ. This cause a panic because the shamans "debunk" the beliefs only to be wrong. If we're lucky, we will be forced to set up the infrastructure all over again.

We need that Library.
 
weeellll, I think we might be able to pass the challenge without challenging something.

If that was the actual goal here I would work towards an insta-golden-age, then switch policy to the one the exclusively supports study actions next turn. Then hope for good luck or a hint.
 
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Academia Nut said:
"Sometimes a sick tree is seen and removed, but the People tend to do controlled burns on older sections of forest on a set schedule before setting those parts aside for pasture and tilling for a time before replanting."
"It's a terrible waste I tell you! The Blight is an ancient exaggeration, and the way we treat the forests is unnecessary meddling that does more harm to forest and People than good!"
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This says it all. It sounds particularly ignorant and dismissive of a truly ancient belief. IC I get where they're coming from. OOC I see where it would lead to absolute disaster.
 
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[X] Send missions to the chief belligerents (Secondary Trade missions to Highlanders and Thunder Horse)
[X] Main provinces (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] Challenge the validity of the Sacred Warding (???)

Changing my vote.
 
@Academia Nut if we added salt to the Hathatyn as well as the two main aggressors, would that make it take up another slot or could we just do it? I'm not really clear on how this all works yet.
 
Kiba said:
OK. So they challenged the Sacred Warding beliefs. Then smallpox finally return to our civ. This cause a panic because the shamans "debunk" the beliefs only to be wrong. If we're lucky, we will be forced to set up the infrastructure all over again.

We need that Library.
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We do need that library.

On the other hand, if we challenge sacred forest, in a century we see our forests start dying and one of our crucial pieces of food production and infrastructure crumbles and nobody has any idea how to fix it. At least with smallpox, it will happen in a few years and can be fixed.
 
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