but being prepared anyway means the hypotheical comet doesn't hurt us.

Okay, this is funny, a comet has always hurt us, no matter how high our econ was because it scared people, the only time it didn't it was because of our shaman King, so here it will be the same if it indeed does appear, in fact it will be worse, because some people will remember that guy and then blame us for not preparing accordingly to the warning of the spirits

Here the option not to be hurt by it does only exist, because people would see how the prepare for a crisis and thus feel assured that the government is handling the matter and they don't need to worry about it

Almost nothing that granted free Stability had led to good precedents you know...

It doesn't grant free Stab, it grant's Stab in exchange for limiting our choice next turn, which is a cost

Also quite a few free Stab action and were good, so just because a few were particular bad you can't just dismiss them all

Here is another thing, has it ever occured to you that by heeding his warnings and then finding out they were wrong we are more likely to trigger Observance then by ignoring and finding out it simple won't happen within our lifetime ?
Adhoc vote count started by sidestory on May 18, 2017 at 1:30 AM, finished with 112 posts and 42 votes.
 
[X] Examine Star Mirror (possibility of disrupting holy site, ???)
[X] Trade mission to the Metal Workers (-1 Diplomacy)

Voting for Examine Star Mirror because that is the site that would get over looked. Also in pattern it appears first. Is it a constant pattern though or dose the order vary?
These would be sort of mini-survey actions to check the sites if there is anything that might be important that has been overlooked.
Trade mission is more of we rarely hear news that far out any way and we might be able to warn them the nomads are acting strangely if they know nothing.
 
The thing that makes me really unhappy about this "oh no, do everything to avoid another superstition" push?

The Library Megaproject is [Observance] tagged. Our best bet for our people actually gaining some understanding of the world they live in blows up if we accidentally drop Observance.

Compared to that, picking up another superstition is peanuts.
 
Everyone keep in mind that though this world mirrors our world we have not been told that it is our world if we ignore the guy and the comet comes we will lose A LOT of stab and legit because we did not heed the warnings of the spirits.
 
Babbling Man seems somewhat straightforward depending on whether or not you think AN is punking us over the comet.

1) Comet Incoming

Ignoring him is undesirable. Yes, listening to him reinforces the religious superstitions regarding head trauma victims who happen to babble half-understandable gibberish. Not listening to him will still reinforce that because the People are already thinking that may be what he's talking about, and we'll take a hit for ignoring a warning from the spirits themselves. Especially if something bad does happen. Doom Prep is clearly a good option for the stability boost that could come if the comet does bring disaster.

2) Gibberish Man is Gibberish. AN is punking us.

Ignoring him triggers Observance. Gain some skepticism. We look like fools for heeding his advice about the Doom Bunker, but otherwise nothing disastrous happens. Slight chance of skepticism. Probably get stability anyway because the King is doing something that he thought was following the spirits, he just got it wrong which happens. AKA, we get the stability anyway because AN told us we would.

3) Psych! It's a Giant Meteor/Super Volcano/Whatever.

Somebody's getting fuuuuuucked. Big crisis. Stockpiling for the disaster is gonna look real good for the government as being all wise and whatnot. Gain Legitimacy for being great Kings. If we ignore it and this happens? People gon' be pissed... but honestly the crisis will be huge and that will overwhelm our choice, but in this case Stockpiling for the bonus Stability/whatever is super necessary because man do we wanna be prepped for an actual natural disaster.

4) Fuck it, let's study shit.

Honestly a decent neutral pick. There's more than one bit to the babbling.
We find nothing, comet comes: Whoops, got it wrong. Worst outcome because it means we fucked up, but not as bad as straight up ignoring the prophecy.
We find something, comet comes: Eh. Depends on how much 'damage' comes with the comet. Probably a neutral outcome because we got something out of the prophecy but well the comet also came as was foretold.
We find nothing, comet doesn't come: Well I guess he was babbling after all.
And if we find something, and the comet still doesn't come? We got it right! And we get a shiny bonus! We look good, we get a free guided study action, no comet superstition.


tl;dr, yeah, Doom Bunkering and Ignoring both have the potential for Trait Evolution or something for sure. Yay for the mystery box. Problem is, any assumptions about what it'll be depends entirely on whether or not the evil-omen comet is actually coming. I realize nobody wants the evil omen comet to come because man do superstition and Iron not mix with our society right now, but frankly if it does show up then Ignoring it will obviously backfire. Instead of getting Skepticism you get Superstition. Pretty sure nobody wants that.
And I think this is a good example of asute analysis on our options.

So my vote shall be this.

[X] Examine Star Mirror (possibility of disrupting holy site, ???)
[X] Military scouting mission

Neutral option. Like Stealthy said, it shows we are doing something so it negates the nebulous legitimacy and stability drops that are risked in ignoring him. Like notgreat said it could help study stars or optics, though optics seems a bit of a stretch. The clear pool may also reveal the comet early. And if it does it one time, what's to say it can't give us further early comet warning? That'd be useful. E: If the comet is coming of course.

The military scouting option is to go check directly and protect ourselves while doing so. Risks poking them and making them angry, but that for one will not be a problem if the comet comes and for a twofer it will be something we can deal with since the Khan is getting old. He might have died already since we've seen hide nor hair of him.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on May 18, 2017 at 1:40 AM, finished with 116 posts and 43 votes.
 
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I mean, this is a pretty straightforward application of Pascal's Wager. Ignore is just not a good option.
 
Why do people insist on ignoring the man!? If we ignore him and a comet or calamity comes we will be on the brink of civil war, if the comet does not come then it will be business as usual and we gain nothing.

If we prepare and the comet or a calamity comes we boost both stab and Legitimacy for listening to the spirits, if it does not then we gain stab maybe some slight embaressment and the people will learn not to trust crazy people.
 
I mean, this is a pretty straightforward application of Pascal's Wager. Ignore is just not a good option.
If we don't believe in science but act as if it exists we lose nothing but material pleasures and stand to gain infinite rewards in the form of material pleasures as a result of pragmatic decision-making. :p
 
This bit, you mean? Where we explicitly declare that punishment is necessary and must be carried out, but with care to what it does to the punisher, as well?

We're not going to evolve Observance by dismissing a hypothesis without evidence, or if we are, it's not going to evolve in a happy direction.

The Ymaryn don't have a historical body of knowledge of things that don't work, and we're not going to be able to skip building one.
Yes, we went against the Equal Punishment aspect of Eye for an Eye, but did not reject that punishment was necessary

Look at the options in context of Observance:
[] Examine Star Mirror (possibility of disrupting holy site, ???)
-Evidence: Babbling Man said something about Black Mirror(Star Mirror) and Sun Spear(divine weapons)
-Conclusion: Go check out the Star Mirror, maybe there's something hidden in the water.
-Provability: None. Conclusion cannot be disproved even if people find nothing here.
-Mechanics: Secondary Survey(Star Mirror) or Study Stars
-Outcomes:
--Potentially destroy the holy site in the process, with unknown social backlash.
--Potentially locate a special resource

[] Examine Bleeding Cliff (possibility of disrupting settlement activity, ???)
-Evidence: Babbling Man said something about Bleeding Vein(Bleeding Cliff) and Sun Spear(divine weapons)
-Conclusion: Go check out the Bleeding Cliff, maybe there's something wrong with the metal.
-Provability: None-negative. Conclusion cannot be disproved even if people find nothing here. People are already negatively inclined towards metal.
-Mechanics: Secondary Survey(Bleeding Cliff) or Study Metal
-Outcomes:
--Potentially damage Economy gain of settlement
--Potentially reinforce metal superstition

[] Stockpile resources for the return of the Doom Comet (+1 Stability if over 5 Econ by mid-turn next turn, ???)
-Evidence: Babbling Man said something about Sky Streak(Comet)
-Conclusion: Comet is coming, we should prepare for it.
-Provability: Yes. Simple observation of the skies will prove things:
-Mechanics: Free Grand Sacrifice equivalent if requirement made. Will lock next turn out of most military or infrastructure buildup.
-Outcomes:
--If Comet and prepared: Strongly establishes new superstition that brain damaged or otherwise insane people are a valid source of prophecy.
--If Comet and not prepared: Major unrest will result.
--If No Comet and prepared:
---If nothing else goes wrong, belief disproven. Observance upgrade event.
---If something else relating to the words(so Metal mostly) goes wrong, belief arises that the omens were misunderstood, but that he was correct. Establishes new superstition that brain damaged or otherwise insane people are a valid source of prophecy.
---If something else unrelated to the words goes wrong it's a tossup.
--If No Comet and not prepared:
---If nothing else goes wrong, belief disproven. Observance upgrade event.
---If something else, belief arises that ignoring the omens caused whatever happened. Unknown superstition gain chance.

[] This man is sick, care for him but ignore his ramblings (???)
Evidence
-Evidence: Man takes head injury, becomes Babbling Man after botched surgery.
-Conclusion: He needs further medical treatment, see what's wrong with him. Also that Carrion Eater who mucked it up should be disciplined.
-Provability: Conditional. Further medical treatment may relieve his issues. Or just kill him.
-Mechanics: Secondary Study Health
-Outcomes:
--Potentially improve surgical techniques or caring for the mentally ill.
--Establish precedent that babbling or insane people are in need of medical care, not possessed by the spirits.

Now here's the big sticking point:
-This guy is a chariot driver. Not a shaman. He has no exposure to the necessary information to come to a brain damage induced flash of insight.
--Star Mirror - He might have visited there once.
--Bleeding Cliffs - The only basis for this is that the new settlement to obtain Starmetal is the talk of the country. I.e. it's just gossip. Odds are he's just talking about literal bleeding veins, what with being a warrior.
--Comet - He is unlikely to be literate enough to comprehend astrological records. This is a warrior. Not a carrion eater or blackbird.

So basically, he's uh...actually looking at his ramblings he's basically repeating recent public concerns.
 
If we don't believe in science but act as if it exists we lose nothing but material pleasures and stand to gain infinite rewards in the form of material pleasures as a result of pragmatic decision-making. :p
We are going to try to keep our econ up anyway and the mine will cost us a stab point
Well we could gain a good dose of skepticism and it could give a trait that buffs our resistance to superstition and other dumb shit like that
But if what the man foretold does happen we will be on the brink of civil war. Plus skepticism is bad if you have no scientific basis for proving stuff we are in the copper age still and have no scientific method the debilitating belief if overcome could evolve observance. But if we refuse to observe and form hypothesis no matter how false we will never arive to the true answer.
So basically, he's uh...actually looking at his ramblings he's basically repeating recent public concerns.
Yes he is but the risks from ignoring him outway the risks from listening to him we are at stab 0 legit 2 right now what do you think will happen to us if a calamity happens and people know we were forewarned yet did nothing about it?
 
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@veekie I do not think our society is capable of making the conceptual link you are asking them to. We already think crazy people are blessed or cursed of the spirits and will continue to do so. It's just part of the basic world view at this level of development.

[X] Stockpile resources for the return of the Doom Comet (+1 Stability if over 5 Econ by mid-turn next turn, ???)
[X] Trade mission to the Metal Workers (-1 Diplomacy)
 
But if what the man foretold does happen we will be on the brink of civil war. Plus skepticism is bad if you have no scientific basis for proving stuff we are in the copper age still and have no scientific method the debilitating belief if overcome could evolve observance. But if we refuse to observe and form hypothesis no matter how false we will never arive to the true answer.
why would we be on the brink of civil war? We can ignore him & act so as to prepare anyways, if we want.
 
But if what the man foretold does happen we will be on the brink of civil war. Plus skepticism is bad if you have no scientific basis for proving stuff we are in the copper age still and have no scientific method the debilitating belief if overcome could evolve observance. But if we refuse to observe and form hypothesis no matter how false we will never arive to the true answer.
No it won't that's fear mongering, Civil war my ass, it will hurt, but we won't be civil warring
 
The problem is that all the benefits of choosing Ignore (and don't get me wrong, I'd prefer to minimize all dumb superstitions if at all possible) only happen if we're right and the comet doesn't come. If we're wrong then we gain the superstition everybody wants to avoid, and if we fail the riot roll then we lose stability, legitimacy, etc.

We have more to lose by the comet coming and ignoring the guy, then we do by the comet not coming and us listening.

And I agree that we'd have to crit fail a bunch to really get to civil war footing. Too much to entertain as a likely outcome. Doesn't mean that we can take the reasonably expected Stability/Legitimacy hit.
 
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Well we could gain a good dose of skepticism
Skepticism can be blind dogma as well as clear sight, you know. How do you expect our shamans to know the difference?
actually looking at his ramblings he's basically repeating recent public concerns.
Hmm.
--Establish precedent that babbling or insane people are in need of medical care, not possessed by the spirits.
Our shamans' understanding of medicine, at this time, assumes that spirits do possess people.
A junior Carrion Eater had operated upon him, exorcising the demon within his skull,
It's possible, given your point that he's just babbling about common concerns, that they'll figure out that it's actually something other than spirits that's causing issues, in which case hypothesis made and tested, no spirit involved - but if they don't notice that, we're establishing a practice of ignoring evidence that doesn't fit into existing dogma, not setting precedent that spirits don't exist.

You're putting a lot of pressure on getting a lucky study roll.
 
To take a deeper look at our options and how they interact with the dreaded Observance.
Do note with these options if a comet only comes on the mid turn then we won't know the exact permutation of the outcome until the mid turn, so we will have some time.

[] Examine Star Mirror (possibility of disrupting holy site, ???)
This has us go look at the Star Mirror in Black River. What will we find is the question? If the comet comes and we find something then that won't have much effect one way or the other on Weapons of the Gods. What it may do is that we see the comet early in the mirror lake and get an early warning system and a positive proc from Observance.

If the comet comes and we did not find anything we will be neutral. We will have gone over there and seen "Hey we didn't find anything and this comet is here." The only reason it is neutral, is sadly it can't weaken Weapons of the Gods from what I can see. At least not directly.

If the comet does not come and we do find something then yippie! Whatever it is will at least be tangentially related to study stars and that is always good.

If nothing comes out of it then it was a "wasted action" but it did show our people the kings and chiefs are doing something. This counters the nebulous legitimacy and stability costs that come with ignoring him.

[] Examine Bleeding Cliff (possibility of disrupting settlement activity, ???)
This has us go look at the Bleeding Cliff. What will we find is the question? If the comet comes and we find something then that, depending on the nature of what we find, may strengthen Weapons of the Gods, because "hey we found something and here is the comet they must be connected".

If the comet comes and we did not find anything we will be neutral or weakening the Weapons of the Gods. We will have gone over there and seen "Hey we didn't find anything and this comet is here. Confusion?" The only reason it is neutral instead of good is that this can be explained away by saying "We just didn't look hard enough".

If the comet does not come and we do find something then yippie! Whatever it is will at least be tangentially related to metal and that is always good. If it's a toxic thing for example we now know about it and can deal with it.

If nothing comes out of it then it was a "wasted action" but it did show our people the kings and chiefs are doing something. Same legitimacy and stability things as the Star Mirror.


[] Stockpile resources for the return of the Doom Comet (+1 Stability if over 5 Econ by mid-turn next turn, ???)

The strongest "listen to him option" this has a distinct chance of giving us a madmen are prophets Belief. Which would be bad we generally all agree.

If the comet comes and we have done this then it means a very strong chance to get a new superstition which is that insane people are touched by spirits and are prophets.

If the comet does not come it is a big blow to Observance's con and we get some mild relief/humor/embarrassment for the chiefs and king.



[] This man is sick, care for him but ignore his ramblings (???)

If the comet comes and we did this we will have massive social backlash.

If it does not come and we did this then not a lot is gonna change. We set a precedent that the insane and head trauma victims are sick and not touched by vorlons. E: or at least they may be touched by vorlons but they can't tell the future.


We are going to try to keep our econ up anyway and the mine will cost us a stab point

But if what the man foretold does happen we will be on the brink of civil war. Plus skepticism is bad if you have no scientific basis for proving stuff we are in the copper age still and have no scientific method the debilitating belief if overcome could evolve observance. But if we refuse to observe and form hypothesis no matter how false we will never arive to the true answer.

Yes he is but the risks from ignoring him outway the risks from listening to him we are at stab 0 legit 2 right now what do you think will happen to us if a calamity happens and people know we were forewarned yet did nothing about it?
By doing Star Mirror or Bleeding Cliffs we are exploring parts of the prophecy while not risking social backlash or really severe issues in superstitions. Even if the comet comes we will have been visibly doing something and that cancels out the legitimacy and stability hits. Basically "The Kings and Chiefs listened and found X." Depending on X we have a strong chance of developing either a good observation or coming out neutral.

Also thanks @veekie for the analysis of the options.

My vote is still.

[X] Examine Star Mirror (possibility of disrupting holy site, ???)
[X] Military scouting mission
 
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Frankly you people expect too much from a copper age civ.
why would we be on the brink of civil war? We can ignore him & act so as to prepare anyways, if we want.
No it won't that's fear mongering, Civil war my ass, it will hurt, but we won't be civil warring
Oh really say you were the average copper age farmer and saw the comet that your ancestors have told you that great doom is coming you then found out that the king had known all about this event yet did nothing with this information you would of course be rightfully pissed.

And while you people may be right about that not being enough for civil war it would still lead to discontent and loss of trust in the government making us lose stab and legitimacy for no gain AND will get us the debilitating beliefe you people are trying to avoid!
 
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[X] Stockpile resources for the return of the Doom Comet (+1 Stability if over 5 Econ by mid-turn next turn, ???)
[X] Trade mission to the Metal Workers (-1 Diplomacy)
 
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