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Paths of Civilization

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maximillian said:
A criminal must be punished, if you set a precedent that so long as you're favoured by the king you're exempt from the law, in a century you'll have plenty of special people alright.

Also heretic is opposition to the established dogma, and the guys who preach our dogma are both powerful and rich, and they have the blind loyalty of our assassins and medic soldiers.

Giving them a the proverbial middle finger isn't a thing to do
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Like @Entropy Engineer said this is like Gallileo and the Catholic Church. The Modern World would not think of the Stars and itself the way it does with out him. Newton would have been far less confident. It also promotes the establishment of tyranny of ideas if we do this. That is very Anti-People. It is very Anti-Cosmopolitan Acceptance.

And if Greater Good procs once we are in a far better position.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on May 15, 2017 at 11:29 PM, finished with 34607 posts and 49 votes.
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I've always loved a heretic so let's bite the bullet.

[X] Protect him and have him teach his knowledge (-4 Stability, -2 Legitimacy, -10 Mysticism, -10 Art, -2 Prestige, chance of infuriating the Metal Workers, gain Iron Smelting study chain)
 
I have to agree with @maximillian here; this does set an absolutely horrible precedent, and if it was for anything less than bronze I'd be right there with you objecting.

THIS IS IRON. LITERALLY THE SECOND OR THIRD MOST IMPORTANT REVOLUTION AFTER AGRICULTURAL AND DEBATEBlY THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION.
 
Entropy Engineer said:
Ok let me liken this to someone you might know and fits the situation well.

Galileo and the Catholic Church. This is what the situation is. Do we throw out the new model to satisfy tradition or do we throw out the old flawed model to the benefit of science? This is the decision and if you think killing him won't suppress innovation? Well you think we're being cocky.
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But that's not a good example because most of the other natural philosophers of the Time also disagreed with him, the church indited him for heresy because he used the Bible to justify his theory when he couldn't provide a viable model of helocentrisim. The tech for a valid model wouldn't exist until a century and a half after his death. You see galileo had a theory that was impossible to prove, he could use a telescope to see the planetary rotations, but he couldn't provide a model that can make predictions, whilst the geocentrics could.

What happend to gallio is the medieval version of a paper that is not well received.
 
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maximillian said:
A criminal must be punished, if you set a precedent that so long as you're favoured by the king you're exempt from the law, in a century you'll have plenty of special people alright.

Also heretic is opposition to the established dogma, and the guys who preach our dogma are both powerful and rich, and they have the blind loyalty of our assassins and medic soldiers.

Giving them a the proverbial middle finger isn't a thing to do
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The "established dogma" that he is breaking is the Debilitating Belief that is Weapons of the Gods.

We already planned on breaking it.

Yes, doing this will upset a lot of people, but guess what? That's why we have Stability 3, to counteract such effects. This is explicitly why many of us wanted this buffer, so we can break a few eggs to make the mother of all omelettes.
 
BungieONI said:
Like @Entropy Engineer said this is like Gallileo and the Catholic Church. The Modern World would not think of the Stars and itself the way it does with out him. Newton would have been far less confident. It also promotes the establishment of tyranny of ideas if we do this. That is very Anti-People. It is very Anti-Cosmopolitan Acceptance.

And if Greater Good procs once we are in a far better position.
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If the historians somehow got very good record of the discovery of Iron, they would celebrate the Ymaryn people. It would cement our legacy and our place in history as the Giver of Civilization.

And if we survive this, we are going to discover more, and we are going to domesticate the hell out of mankind.
 
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[X] Protect him and have him teach his knowledge (-4 Stability, -2 Legitimacy, -10 Mysticism, -10 Art, -2 Prestige, chance of infuriating the Metal Workers, gain Iron Smelting study chain)

This is a shiny. The best shiny we could ever possibly get.

I've said many times that stats are there to be spent. It's time to spend them.
 
[X] Protect him and have him teach his knowledge (-4 Stability, -2 Legitimacy, -10 Mysticism, -10 Art, -2 Prestige, chance of infuriating the Metal Workers, gain Iron Smelting study chain)

Iron Smelting is worth ending the golden age. It's worth anything.
Yes, it will hurt, but not!Persians will hurt more when they are hit in the face with iron weaponry.
 
@Academia Nut out of curiosity, if we'd chosen to get rid of the anti-metal belief instead of waiting for the mysticism choice, would we even ahve have had the chance for this (and presumably had at least somewhat less cost right now since we paid some "upfront")?
 
maximillian said:
But that's not a good example because most of the other natural philosophers of the Time also disagreed with him, the church indited him for heresy because he used the Bible to justify his theory when he couldn't provide a viable model of helocentrisim. The tech for a valid model wouldn't exist until a century and a half after his death. You see galileo had a theory that was impossible to prove, he could use a telescope to see the planetary rotations, but he couldn't provide a model that can make predictions, whilst the geocentrics could.

What happend to gallio is the medieval version of a paper that is not well received.
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i.... fail to see the difference here.
 
So!

Plan to get Iron Up and Running:

Assume we are in a Mysticism Crisis.

Crisis turn one
Main Proclaim Glory
Secondary Change Policy Restoration
Secondary Study Metal

Crisis turn mid turn 1
There will be a choice here.
If the Stab Boosting option is tanking Metal say no.
If the Stab Boosting option is not tanking Metal say yes.

Crisis turn 2
Provinces will be either fixing Stab or genning Econ to do so.
Main New Settlement Bleeding Cliffs
Secondary War Mission Nomads. Else Grand Sac.
Secondary Expand Econ

Crisis turn mid turn 2
There will be another choice here.
Take the time booster option if there is one.
Else hold and take the continue forward.
Do not pick anything about dropping Iron.

Crisis turn 3 (Our one crisis went went for 4 turns from 3)
Main Expand Holy Sites. Or Main Iron Mine Bleeding Cliffs if we need to.
Secondary Expand Econ.
Secondary Iron Mine Bleeding Cliffs. If we need to main it do Holy sites here.


Boom we're basically done and roaring to go. I say we should stop panicking and fearmongering.
 
[X] Protect him and have him teach his knowledge (-4 Stability, -2 Legitimacy, -10 Mysticism, -10 Art, -2 Prestige, chance of infuriating the Metal Workers, gain Iron Smelting study chain)

Holy shit both the costs and rewards are crazy. Yeah we got to get this since otherwise we are going to take thousands of years to get back here.
 
Also,

Academia Nut said:
Warriors
Hereditary elites
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Academia Nut said:
Government Transition
Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom (Elective) -> Oligarchic Ancient Kingdom
A king holds chief executive power, but is primarily drawn from and voted in by a limited set of families backed by economic might and military elites.
Pros: Good mix of central authority and provincial autonomy
Cons: Beware competing ambitions...
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Urgh. This is not the path I wanted to go down. At least communal land ownership mitigates the downsides....well, not for Stallions though.
 
Kiba said:
Dude. This person hadn't so much kill or murder anyone that we know of anyway.



Basically, staying at max art and mysticism allow us a greater chance of rolling a natural 100?
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I don't believe that is what he means.

What AN means is that if we had overturned the belief and then rolled a Nat 100 we would have gotten this far easier.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on May 15, 2017 at 11:44 PM, finished with 34626 posts and 53 votes.
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BungieONI said:
Plan to get Iron Up and Running:
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I'm pretty sure next turn is stolen via admin hero again. My guess is a Proclaim Glory and a Restore Order, but it's hard to say.

BungieONI said:
What AN means is that if we had overturned the belief and then rolled a Nat 100 we would have gotten this far easier.
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No, I'm pretty sure that it means that the nat 100 would've given us the best possible advancement we could afford. And being at a low mysticism, we wouldn't be able to afford as much.
 
DocMatoi said:
i.... fail to see the difference here.
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What happend to galileo Is what we modern people would do (minus the heresy charge) to if an academic made a theory that is impossible to prove, and then used metaphysics to try and legitimise it. We would dismiss him as mad.



The situation we have here isn't a a good but impossible to prove idea, and breaking the law to try to justify it.

It's breaking the law several times to test an idea. And then asking for pardon cus the idea was correct.
The law is a slippery thing, we can't let it be established that it doesn't apply to everyone. What if in a hundred years a man kills his brother because he suspects he slept with his wife, and counts on the wife confessing after the murder so it becomes a fued killing rather than murder? After all the act doesn't matter it's how is its justified afterwards that counts.

A bit extreme you say? Real life laws evolved in more horrid ways based on far more innocent premises.
 
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