Paths of Civilization

Academia Nut · May 14, 2017

Necratoid said:
I personally find the fact The People are a fraction of the size of anyone but the notAztecs and out populate them hilarious.

To be fair, the Assyrotecs recently lost most of their territory and have basically been pushed back to their primary city.

NotteBoy97 · May 14, 2017

Maybe we can create another March in the Lowlands so we can get some land but aren't forced to completely foucus on it?

godofsmallthings · May 14, 2017

Hmm, I wonder if we can control the entire shoreline ala Roman Empire. Maybe better/more boats wouldn't be a bad idea.

BungieONI · May 14, 2017

DocMatoi said:
What if 'Black River' Is the Ural river?

Thas possible. Just doesn't look right.

Also.

The People are Flipping Off the Thunder Speakers/Thunder Horse and the rest of the Lowlands while the HK wear us like a "Fuck You" hat. I don't think I can quantify how amused this makes me.

*references new Map*

Kiba · May 14, 2017

Academia Nut said:
To be fair, the Assyrotecs recently lost most of their territory and have basically been pushed back to their primary city.

They were once really scary too.

Ghostdevil · May 14, 2017

....
My internal CK2 player is beckoning me to support our New Hero's potential bid for Heredity, so that he can legitimize his child and then use the blackbirds to assassinate all the HK family so that the Throne goes to the child and then we inherit all of it...

I'll try to resist the urge!

BungieONI · May 14, 2017

Ghostdevil said:
....
My internal CK2 player is beckoning me to support our New Hero's potential bid for Heredity, so that he can legitimize his child and then use the blackbirds to assassinate all the HK family so that the Throne goes to the child and then we inherit all of it...

I'll try to resist the urge!

Ganbare Ghostdevil!

andrewopk · May 14, 2017

[X][Honour] Quality training
[X][Mystic] Wait
[X][Goal] Humiliate (Hard, +1 Prestige)
[X][Stallions] Focus efforts on the Thunder Speakers

Ghostdevil · May 14, 2017

BungieONI said:
Ganbare Ghostdevil!

Idk but what that means but Ok!

Necratoid · May 14, 2017

Looking at the map further:
-The Hathatyn exist... apparently.
-The primary river of The People originates inside their borders. No upriver pollution source for them to get screwed over by!
-The Stallion Tribes, OTOH, are down river of everyone... twice. To be fair that duel river makes everything easier to expand northward. That twin river point is scream s'Put Important Trade Center HERE', loudly.

Academia Nut said:
To be fair, the Assyrotecs recently lost most of their territory and have basically been pushed back to their primary city.

True enough. Also, The People building tall, rather that wide, is going freak people out if the human wave attacks option is the military upgrade. Makes actually invading like a horror movie where someone tries to elite unit spam and are lagged to death by mid power units.

Umi-san · May 14, 2017

hylas240 said:
I agree on expanding on the northern river system. The rivers will also make communication easier, thus lessening the burden on our administration. We will have to aggressively build defenses though, since we're exposed to the nomads on every side except the south.

We can also acquire vassalization from the HK once we get impressive enough (more prestige or winning big against their enemies after they get weakened enough by themselves). Netting us a huge river system that's connected to our valleyhome settlement.

The eastern expansion would have to wait until we're confident in our military, economy, and stability (as that expansion would require a lot of defensive measures and possible war missions losing us stability).

I agree that doing the river expansion first is likely to be a safer route, especially since it doesn't require a split focus. I'd also note, however, that the land on the other side of Redhill was originally portrayed as forested and more mountainous, which means it will be more defensible than the Redhill currently is. It's possible, however, that this is not true. In which case I'd rather do the rivers and then fill out till we're a tall rectangle splitting the nomads in half, and then maybe conquer west-ward till we hit the MW instead. Less opposition on that side.

Karugus said:
See, even if it'd require a bit more blood shed. I'd rather do that with the much more profitable and geographically closer (and hence more controllable) Lowlands.

You'd give us a bunch of defensible and arable land, but it'd be at least as far out as the Stallions. We seize the northern Lowlands and use the Dam to make our river more navigable and we'll a) be protecting a smaller area b) be able to control it much better and c) be controlling a much more profitable land.

As for the people insisting that Reducing the TS's sphere of influence would provide an opening for the HK- no more than it would provide an opening for the good diplomat and excellent admin to exploit somehow. I'd trust a hero who's the son of the mastermind of the latest wave of Ymaryn expansion the best suited to tell us the best place to go expand into.

Looking at the map there's plenty of room to expand in the north east plain area of the Lowlands. It doesn't have rivers, but it's close to the EH and doesn't seem to really be claimed.

The lowlands are as profitable as the steppes could be w/o the same effort but with increased amounts of serious bloodshed. The nomads are more liable to be diplomanced or chased out by settlements than the people to the south. The people in the south are internally united, used to flat-out conquest war and don't want to give up their land.

Dam-ing the river won't make it more navigable in any way that would help us unless you plan on invading the HK, in which case a more controlled flood season would be nice. It will not make it a passable route to the lowlands: doing so would take building a new canal.

It is indeed likely that the northeast plain area of the lowlands is relatively unoccupied and can likely be diplomanced with a couple of trade missions. It comes at the cost of facing intense TS, TH, and Xohyssiri assaults, however. It will also likely aggravate the HK.

Deathbybunnies · May 14, 2017

Academia Nut said:
As promised, here's a better map

Wow, neat! I wonder where we are...

Hey @Academia Nut , which direction does the Sun rise in relative to this map?

veekie · May 14, 2017

Okay, analysis time~

Diplomacy 10 [+1]->9 [+1]

Spent 2 on the peace delegation, gained 1 from salt.

Economy 10 (+1+2)->9

Spent 2 on Chariots, 1 on Main Walls, 1 on Main Towers
Gained 3 from settlements

Martial 8->10

Gained 3 from Chariots. Apparently lost 1 to the War Mission.

Stability 3 (emboldened)
Legitimacy 3 (max)

We golden. Perception did not win over reality for once!

Art 14 (max, overflowing)
Mysticism 14 (max, overflowing)

*Lightning overflow noises*
We've gained so much of both that they're overflowing into Economy via Golden Age.

Prestige 10 (+1 Subordinates)

And here we see the value of Prestige. Allows us to hold additional periphery states. The Eastern Thunder Horse must be gaining Prestige from wars, since otherwise I don't see them vassalizing the Thunder Speakers otherwise

The Xohyssiri MIGHT have lost a Prestige category when they vassalized, costing them their Swamp Dudes. Or it could be one of the many shocks.

Transportation
Animal Husbandry
Groomed Trails
Plank Wheel Carts

The most recent cart construction spree had finally caused our NORMAL wagons to convert to plank wheels(probably from the worker overflow once they were done building the military carts), improving our logistics!

Academia Nut said:
Yehlmyn had always been raised with great expectations on him, as with all of his siblings. Not necessarily to become king like his mother, but she was the sort of person who expected her children to do things with their lives. She had ensured that all of them had the best education they wanted, be it in fighting or learning letters or studying the stars, and had made it clear that whatever passions to be pursued they do them well and be the best at them. At that, Yehlmyn had found himself plunged into a world of numbers and letters and listening at his mother's knee while she went about the business of governing.

I think we see one of our possible Honor traits here.
It doesn't matter what you do or how you do it, but applying less than your full effort to excel is unacceptable.

This is an evolution on our already known workaholic tendency.

He'd also found himself entering adulthood in a household filled with nubile young women with no expectation to remain faithful to their 'husband', and that had been perhaps a bit of a problem. He had mostly grown out of that, but he had still been assigned to help take care of more than one of his new 'siblings', which while as a stupid young man had grated on him somewhat, but once he had grown up a bit more he had realized that he was just being an whiny idiot and of course he should have some responsibility for his own kids.

So he was a love em and leave em type.
Fortunately he's charming enough to get away with it, though I suspect more than a few irate parents, siblings and spouses hanging around.

Shortly after his mother had announced that she thought that if he were chosen as the heir it would be a good thing she had also sent out diplomatic missions. The main one was to the Thunder Speakers with a request that they rein in their young warriors who were travelling into the People's territory to cause trouble, but there was also a mission to the Xohyssiri to pass the message along to the Thunder Horse King that they were currently asking the Thunder Speakers to stop raiding them and had no intention of causing trouble or otherwise hassling their vassals so long as they remained peaceful, along with another message to the Highlanders that while they were pursuing peace, they were also going to let them know that they might get a negative response back.

They, of course, got a negative response back.

This was actually quite well done here:
-Send a message to the Thunder Speakers telling them to stop with that nonsense.
-Send a message to the Thunder Horse to inform them before hostilities start that we don't want this. This will inspire a reaction of Talk Shit, Get Hit by their new overlords.
-'Leak' the message to the Xohyssiri to inform them that we didn't start the fire, and thus, avoid triggering their Pay It Back Double social values.

Seems the Thunder Speaker was still rankling over the whole 'grandfather forced to bow' thing and the fact that the Thunder Horse still hadn't exploded into mutual violence over the imbalance of power and decided that he wasn't going to let someone tell him what to do. Proud, stubborn morons.

Predictable somewhat in hindsight(but since we were 100% arguing only the heir business, nobody cared). Look at it from their PoV:

The Ymirri people have shown up with a delegation carrying gifts of salt, metal and dye, demanding that your youths cease seeking glory within their lands, as is tradition to blood your young warriors and prove themselves fully men.
Should your people refuse, they will be denied access to precious salt and dyes. Your chiefs are furious at the gall of a weakling people who wed women to women while their spineless men dig in the mud telling great warriors what to do. Some of them are still unhappy with the tales of the diplomats from the previous generation regarding the mistreatment of their sisters.

[] Bow to their demands, rein in your young warriors, despite the shame of capitulation. (Stability -1, Prestige -1, chance of further Stability loss, Diplomacy +2)
[] Ignore them, your youths will not be denied their blooding. (Chance of stability loss, chance of war, Diplomacy -2)
[Q] The Ymirri are wealthy and know no honor. If they will not trade with you, then you will pry their wealth from their cold, dead hands(Stability +1)

By the Thunder Horse you will teach them a lesson for this arrogance! Let loose the thunder!

As forces began to move and the Highlands Kingdom replied that they would of course come to the aid of their allies against aggressors, word soon began to come back that the lord of the Thunder Speakers wasn't going to help them with something they started. The Xohyssiri reported to the traders that they would send what help they could to their fellow vassals, once they had finished licking their wounds from their conquest.

Highland Kingdom: "This is a shitty time for a war, but now we can use the Ymaryn to smash the Thunder Speakers for us."
Thunder Horse: "Talk shit, get hit."
Xohyssiri: "We're busy rebuilding our military, call back later."

...you know, the Xohyssiri's given excuse is valid, but normally they SHOULD commit hard to such a conflict because of their social values even if not yet ready. I think our diplomats might have helped there, since the Xohyssiri are caught between "We must meet our obligations as an ally", "The Ymaryn have been generous to us in past generations" and "Oh god why everything is already on fire, you thunder idiots".

Which means they answer with "Call back later, we'll join in when we can". So the Thunder Speakers will go it alone THIS turn, but will have the Xohyssiri backing them up next turn(and possibly their liege lords will get dragged in if it goes long enough)

At his recommendation they diverted a massive amount of resources towards the new province of Blackriver and the city of Blackmouth along the coast, seeing as it was the most vulnerable location to the nomads noticing that the attention of the People was elsewhere. By constructing enormous walls complete with their own integrated watchtowers, the settlers would be mostly protected from attacks.

Towered walls! This is as close to immune to early siegecraft as it gets.
And since it's a river city, it'd be very hard to starve out.

Still, despite all of this external strife, the People were happier than they had been in any time but myth. The kingdom was stable and prosperous and knowledge of nature and spirits were available to all, and sacred decorations adorned every home. Upper Valleyhome was a truly beautiful place, and the saltern and dye works brought wealth and safety. Had there ever been a time as good to be alive as this? Barring of course the ancient and mythical times when spirits walked in human flesh.

Golden Age Started!
Requirements Discovered: At least two stats maxed out, maximum stability
Benefits: +1 Prestige for first Golden Age, +1 Econ Expansion/turn, special sudden advancements possible
Ends with: 0 or lower stability, ???

Looks like the overflow of art and mysticism means everyone starts getting household shrines. Hmm. And while the Golden Age lasts we'd be picking up more advancements rapidly.

It's no baby boom, but +1 Econ per turn is enormous.

AN: To be honest, you all freak out too much over max stats so I figured I would have to take control just so that you could see what you needed to get a Golden Age

So, what about Centralization and Hierarchy anyway?

Meanwhile, out in the northern plains and the south-eastern hills/northern lowlands the People began to clash with the Thunder Speakers, who while definitely the better warriors with obviously better trained fighters, more sophisticated ways of moving their people around to maximize the use of their chariots, and a generally more vigorous attitude, were distinctly unprepared for the sheer onslaught of the People.

Thunder Speakers have:
-Better training processes
-Better tactics
-Better social traits to motivate war

The Stallion Tribes in particular hurled themselves with incredible ferocity at the northern territories of the Thunder Speakers, taking significant losses but also inflicting losses and keeping the Thunder Speakers from being able to bring their full weight of warriors to bear on either the north or the south.

The Ymaryn have:
-Triple Main War Mission, which we can do while also working on defense projects AND expanding our economy.
-Three times the Thunder Speaker manpower.
-We hadn't even used our final form yet. If we had a better Martial king we could switch to Offensive policy and throw Quintuple Main War Mission at their face. Eat Total War.

The People produced a lot of records, but over time they eventually had so many that the only thing that could be done with the majority of the clay tablets was to literally bury them with a marker indicating what king they had been recorded from and then hope you never had to go looking for centuries old stuff.

Oh god, our tax records have Strata. Literally.
We're fossilizing our taxes on purpose now!

There were summaries that were kept out in active circulation, but a lot of that wasn't particular important most of the time. More than just records, they needed to record ideas, things that would be useful to future generations. The shamans recorded some things, like the motions of the stars and heavenly bodies, but a lot of their stories were still passed down from teacher to student. Improved filing wasn't that great if the records repositories were still primarily pits of administrative trivia. But what else could be stored?

New Megaproject Unlocked: The Library

This will ENORMOUSLY boost knowledge retention and Study actions overall. Very useful for Surveys as well.

Want.

Actually, with the flourishing of arts and spiritual knowledge, there were a lot of new stories going around that might not be remembered by the shamans. New ideas were bubbling within the People, and while some probably needed to be sorted out, there was a palpable feeling that the People were on the cusp of something new and grand.

Also to emphasize. The Mystic Advance is nearing a breakthrough. If we don't spend it immediately, some sea change is coming.

And then, as more reports were coming back of the Thunder Speakers getting pushed back through being beset on all sides, their own territory now facing significant threat in multiple directions, it came up that nomadic tribes from the north-west had noticed the movement of warriors and were now making incursions into the Stallion Tribes and Blackriver. Of course the People couldn't have peace in the north, that would be too much to ask.

"As history shows, a Waagh is going to happen"

BungieONI · May 14, 2017

Ghostdevil said:
Idk but what that means but Ok!

Ganbare is Japanese/weaboo for "Do your best!"

Character's usually scream it at the top of their lungs. Heh.

Reader of all · May 14, 2017

I kinda want to build a grand canal in one of the rivers of the stallion tribes to make it easier for them to reach the south

ETA50M · May 14, 2017

Umi-san said:
I agree that doing the river expansion first is likely to be a safer route, especially since it doesn't require a split focus. I'd also note, however, that the land on the other side of Redhill was originally portrayed as forested and more mountainous, which means it will be more defensible than the Redhill currently is. It's possible, however, that this is not true. In which case I'd rather do the rivers and then fill out till we're a tall rectangle splitting the nomads in half, and then maybe conquer west-ward till we hit the MW instead. Less opposition on that side.

The lowlands are as profitable as the steppes could be w/o the same effort but with increased amounts of serious bloodshed. The nomads are more liable to be diplomanced or chased out by settlements than the people to the south. The people in the south are internally united, used to flat-out conquest war and don't want to give up their land.

Dam-ing the river won't make it more navigable in any way that would help us unless you plan on invading the HK, in which case a more controlled flood season would be nice. It will not make it a passable route to the lowlands: doing so would take building a new canal.

It is indeed likely that the northeast plain area of the lowlands is relatively unoccupied and can likely be diplomanced with a couple of trade missions. It comes at the cost of facing intense TS, TH, and Xohyssiri assaults, however. It will also likely aggravate the HK.

I'm sorry but the lowlands are a 100x more profitable then the nomad steppes. Don't forget the nomads raid because thier lands suck while the lowlands roar back into strength each time their decimated.

DocMatoi · May 14, 2017

Necratoid said:
-The Hathatyn exist... apparently.

thats the actual name of the Southern Hill People

Karugus · May 14, 2017

Umi-san said:
The lowlands are as profitable as the steppes could be w/o the same effort but with increased amounts of serious bloodshed. The nomads are more liable to be diplomanced or chased out by settlements than the people to the south. The people in the south are internally united, used to flat-out conquest war and don't want to give up their land.

They're really not. It's mostly a loose connection of settlements that have vacilitated between several powers over the course of their history. I'm not talking about driving them off, I'm talking about making them an arrangement like we had with Northshore.

And no, the fucking arid steppes are not, and aren't going to be anywhere near as fertile as lowlands plains unless a massive amount of terraforming occurs.

Umi-san said:
It is indeed likely that the northeast plain area of the lowlands is relatively unoccupied and can likely be diplomanced with a couple of trade missions. It comes at the cost of facing intense TS, TH, and Xohyssiri assaults, however. It will also likely aggravate the HK.

It's nowhere close to the HK they have far less reason to be agitated over it than Southshore and we already grabbed that, and the TH have already admitted their vassal wars are mostly there own. As for Xohyssiri assaults? We can reasonably fortify and hold ground. Hell we can fort and watchtower main a province the turn it's ours. As for the TS? Who are we beating the fuck up now and driving home a message of 'do not fuck with' for a generation or two.

@Academia Nut how populated is the nominally independent plains between us and the TS just south of the mountains? And is there any possibility with us putting the screws to the TS and actually showing a presence in the Lowlands they might be willing to pledge fealty much like what happened with Northshore and Stonepens?

Everyone is talking about how we need to fight coherent civilizations where everyone fights for their land, and I correct in that a lot of these settlements have a history of being loosely attached to their respective civs and of changing hands? I think so many people are having our culture bias us, for the most part one distant ruler is the same as another.

BlueFlamingWings · May 14, 2017

[X] [Honour] Quality training
[X] [Mystic] Evolve spiritual value (-7 Mysticism)
[X] [Goal] Humiliate (Hard, +1 Prestige)
[X] [Stallions] Split efforts between Thunder Speakers and nomads

So I want this for a couple of reasons. First, the Thunder Horse is making use of the Star Axe so I would like them to come to realization of "Hey, they are using the axe and not being cursed maybe we need metal weapons too to compete." That's what I hope Quality Training does. Also, just to avoid the Stability drop in Studying Metal we don't need to overturn the Weapons of the Gods trait but change it into something new.

The Humiliate option still adds Prestige but is not so hard as limiting their sphere of influence - maybe with this they'll think twice before attacking again.

Lastly, I don't want to tell the Stallions to ignore the raids, but I also don't want to tell them to forget about the TH - that way lies them deciding not rejoin the war effort after the raids are dealt with by thinking "that's the south's problem", furthermore, our allies are kinda banking on the fact that we'll have overwhelming numbers.

BungieONI · May 14, 2017

veekie said:
Okay, analysis time~

Diplomacy 10 [+1]->9 [+1]

Spent 2 on the peace delegation, gained 1 from salt.

Economy 10 (+1+2)->9

Spent 2 on Chariots, 1 on Main Walls, 1 on Main Towers
Gained 3 from settlements

Martial 8->10

Gained 3 from Chariots. Apparently lost 1 to the War Mission.

Stability 3 (emboldened)
Legitimacy 3 (max)

We golden. Perception did not win over reality for once!

Art 14 (max, overflowing)
Mysticism 14 (max, overflowing)

*Lightning overflow noises*
We've gained so much of both that they're overflowing into Economy via Golden Age.

Prestige 10 (+1 Subordinates)

And here we see the value of Prestige. Allows us to hold additional periphery states. The Eastern Thunder Horse must be gaining Prestige from wars, since otherwise I don't see them vassalizing the Thunder Speakers otherwise

The Xohyssiri MIGHT have lost a Prestige category when they vassalized, costing them their Swamp Dudes. Or it could be one of the many shocks.

The most recent cart construction spree had finally caused our NORMAL wagons to convert to plank wheels(probably from the worker overflow once they were done building the military carts), improving our logistics!

I think we see one of our possible Honor traits here.
It doesn't matter what you do or how you do it, but applying less than your full effort to excel is unacceptable.

This is an evolution on our already known workaholic tendency.

So he was a love em and leave em type.
Fortunately he's charming enough to get away with it, though I suspect more than a few irate parents, siblings and spouses hanging around.

This was actually quite well done here:
-Send a message to the Thunder Speakers telling them to stop with that nonsense.
-Send a message to the Thunder Horse to inform them before hostilities start that we don't want this. This will inspire a reaction of Talk Shit, Get Hit by their new overlords.
-'Leak' the message to the Xohyssiri to inform them that we didn't start the fire, and thus, avoid triggering their Pay It Back Double social values.

Predictable somewhat in hindsight(but since we were 100% arguing only the heir business, nobody cared). Look at it from their PoV:

The Ymirri people have shown up with a delegation carrying gifts of salt, metal and dye, demanding that your youths cease seeking glory within their lands, as is tradition to blood your young warriors and prove themselves fully men.
Should your people refuse, they will be denied access to precious salt and dyes. Your chiefs are furious at the gall of a weakling people who wed women to women while their spineless men dig in the mud telling great warriors what to do. Some of them are still unhappy with the tales of the diplomats from the previous generation regarding the mistreatment of their sisters.

[] Bow to their demands, rein in your young warriors, despite the shame of capitulation. (Stability -1, Prestige -1, chance of further Stability loss, Diplomacy +2)
[] Ignore them, your youths will not be denied their blooding. (Chance of stability loss, chance of war, Diplomacy -2)
[Q] The Ymirri are wealthy and know no honor. If they will not trade with you, then you will pry their wealth from their cold, dead hands(Stability +1)

By the Thunder Horse you will teach them a lesson for this arrogance! Let loose the thunder!

Highland Kingdom: "This is a shitty time for a war, but now we can use the Ymaryn to smash the Thunder Speakers for us."
Thunder Horse: "Talk shit, get hit."
Xohyssiri: "We're busy rebuilding our military, call back later."

...you know, the Xohyssiri's given excuse is valid, but normally they SHOULD commit hard to such a conflict because of their social values even if not yet ready. I think our diplomats might have helped there, since the Xohyssiri are caught between "We must meet our obligations as an ally", "The Ymaryn have been generous to us in past generations" and "Oh god why everything is already on fire, you thunder idiots".

Which means they answer with "Call back later, we'll join in when we can". So the Thunder Speakers will go it alone THIS turn, but will have the Xohyssiri backing them up next turn(and possibly their liege lords will get dragged in if it goes long enough)

Towered walls! This is as close to immune to early siegecraft as it gets.
And since it's a river city, it'd be very hard to starve out.

Looks like the overflow of art and mysticism means everyone starts getting household shrines. Hmm. And while the Golden Age lasts we'd be picking up more advancements rapidly.

It's no baby boom, but +1 Econ per turn is enormous.

So, what about Centralization and Hierarchy anyway?

Thunder Speakers have:
-Better training processes
-Better tactics
-Better social traits to motivate war

The Ymaryn have:
-Triple Main War Mission, which we can do while also working on defense projects AND expanding our economy.
-Three times the Thunder Speaker manpower.
-We hadn't even used our final form yet. If we had a better Martial king we could switch to Offensive policy and throw Quintuple Main War Mission at their face. Eat Total War.

Oh god, our tax records have Strata. Literally.
We're fossilizing our taxes on purpose now!

This will ENORMOUSLY boost knowledge retention and Study actions overall. Very useful for Surveys as well.

Want.

Also to emphasize. The Mystic Advance is nearing a breakthrough. If we don't spend it immediately, some sea change is coming.

"As history shows, a Waagh is going to happen"

God damnit Veekie that Strata Joke nearly slew me. *Dicaprio Applause*

As to the rest going from the top.

It makes sense the Xoh lost a prestige category. They might have actually lost it a bit before the break away, because the Swamp folks were described as unstable.

I like plank wheel carts too.

This hypothetical Excellence trait from our workaholic nature is sounding better and better.

Sadness over the Thunder Speakers being dumb. Excellent portrayal.

Xohyssiri #possiblebestpals5000BCE?

Towered walls = path to Castles. *AGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH* *Foams at mouth* Want more!

We're making everything puuuurrty.

They may be better...

But we have RESERVES! *giggles for days over final form*
We can actually hit them with a Septuple War Mission. Two from us, three from the Provinces, two from the March. With out kicks.

*Mad laughter*

All the Books!

Not sure about this.

"Waaaghs are like rain. When it Waaagh's it WAAAGH'S!"

Andres · May 14, 2017

I really like how much the Stallion Tribes are helping out in the war. For all that they're a bunch of nepotistic, anti-reform assholes, they're still Ymaryn, and that makes them ten times better than those Thunder Bastards could ever be.

DocMatoi · May 14, 2017

Karugus said:
I think so many people are having our culture bias us, for the most part one distant ruler is the same as another.

Oooh, I wonder what a new immigrant thinks of a longterm citizen being aware of the king in such a close manner as our people are.
like, one coming from the xohy's who just got here, and her cousin whos been here a long time.
1"No I don't like that guy for king, he's a dick."
2"Well, what are you gonna do?"
1"I'm gonna complain to the chief, that's what I'm gonna do!"
2"Wait, what?"
1"Hey Chief! Xehlmyn's a dickbag!"
2"What- you can't just SAY that!"
1"Why not? He's got a problem with it, he can come tell me himself."
2*UTTER BAFFLEMENT*

Academia Nut · May 14, 2017

veekie said:
So, what about Centralization and Hierarchy anyway?

Those are ones where you probably don't want to redline them in either direction.

Karugus said:
how populated is the nominally independent plains between us and the TS just south of the mountains? And is there any possibility with us putting the screws to the TS and actually showing a presence in the Lowlands they might be willing to pledge fealty much like what happened with Northshore and Stonepens?

Everyone is talking about how we need to fight coherent civilizations where everyone fights for their land, and I correct in that a lot of these settlements have a history of being loosely attached to their respective civs and of changing hands? I think so many people are having our culture bias us, for the most part one distant ruler is the same as another.

The northern hills/plains far from the rivers are far less populated and are mostly goat and sheep herders, there are maybe a couple thousand of them with them giving way to more farms the further south and close to the major river systems you go. There are lots of independent or de facto independent villages scattered in the "unclaimed" or "partially claimed" territories within the lowlands, probably between 80k-100k all together. They tend to be the prize that the major powers in the region kick around between them. Culturally they are closest to either the Highlanders or Xohyssiri, depending on who is closer.

BungieONI · May 14, 2017

DocMatoi said:
Oooh, I wonder what a new immigrant thinks of a longterm citizen being aware of the king in such a close manner as our people are.
like, one coming from the xohy's who just got here, and her cousin whos been here a long time.
1"No I don't like that guy for king, he's a dick."
2"Well, what are you gonna do?"
1"I'm gonna complain to the chief, that's what I'm gonna do!"
2"Wait, what?"
1"Hey Chief! Xehlmyn's a dickbag!"
2"What- you can't just SAY that!"
1"Why not? He's got a problem with it, he can come tell me himself."
2*UTTER BAFFLEMENT*

God I love our people. Especially if this is a thing.

Hey @Academia Nut do we have taverns and or strong alcohol? I know the Spirit of Fire omake implied we imported such things as ideas from the Lowlands, but I feel that the Dwarf part of the Dwelf is being ignored if we don't have Stronk Drink.

Umi-san · May 14, 2017

ETA50M said:
I'm sorry but the lowlands are a 100x more profitable then the nomad steppes. Don't forget the nomads raid because thier lands suck while the lowlands roar back into strength each time their decimated.

Clearly you didn't read what I wrote. What I wrote was something like "the steppes involve more work but the lowlands involve more bloodshed, all for the same result." The lowlands roar back into strength each time "their" decimated? Wow, let's join into that endless cycle of death!

Karugus said:
They're really not. It's mostly a loose connection of settlements that have vacilitated between several powers over the course of their history. I'm not talking about driving them off, I'm talking about making them an arrangement like we had with Northshore.

And no, the fucking arid steppes are not, and aren't going to be anywhere near as fertile as lowlands plains unless a massive amount of terraforming occurs.

Which is more or less what I'm advocating...? It will take less effort and less death to reform the area around the river system in the north than it will to seize the north eastern portion of the lowlands.

Maybe the lowland minors are, but I wasn't referring to them, I was referring to the HK, Xohyssiri, TS, and TH. The lowland minors are the people I explicitly said we can diplomance.

Karugus said:
It's nowhere close to the HK they have far less reason to be agitated over it than Southshore and we already grabbed that, and the TH have already admitted their vassal wars are mostly there own. As for Xohyssiri assaults? We can reasonably fortify and hold ground. Hell we can fort and watchtower main a province the turn it's ours. As for the TS? Who are we beating the fuck up now and driving home a message of 'do not fuck with' for a generation or two.

@Academia Nut how populated is the nominally independent plains between us and the TS just south of the mountains? And is there any possibility with us putting the screws to the TS and actually showing a presence in the Lowlands they might be willing to pledge fealty much like what happened with Northshore and Stonepens?

Everyone is talking about how we need to fight coherent civilizations where everyone fights for their land, and I correct in that a lot of these settlements have a history of being loosely attached to their respective civs and of changing hands? I think so many people are having our culture bias us, for the most part one distant ruler is the same as another.

A lot of these settlements have a history of being loosely attached and changing hands. They're loosely attached and changing hands because people fight and die to gain and keep them, repeatedly, constantly. You're advocating stepping into the endless lowland bloodbath for a portion of (already fertile) land that is insignificant in comparison to the (currently barren) stretch of land in the north. I consider this foolish, and something that goes against our approach thus far.

Random mash of responses:
The TH admitted that the TS battle was their fault cus they fucked it up. Us going and seizing land might be a different matter. The land you're advocating taking is basically the same land the HK were fighting w/ the TS for - though I agree that they might not care these days. The land you're advocating taking is the same land that used to belong to the XS before the TS and TH beat them up - two groups who are now the XS' allies against, theoretically, the HK and us. The TH are having a hard time beating us up because currently our only really vulnerable province is Redhill.

Anyways, I've said my piece (that I don't care for invading the lowlands) and you've said yours (that invading the lowlands seems worthwhile) so I'm unwilling to continue this line of discussion - mostly because I want to go take a shower and stare at the new plants I bought.

Paths of Civilization

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

The Devil of Ghosts

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

The Devil of Ghosts

Procrastinating.

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Theoretical Lover of Girls

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Theoretical Lover of Girls

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Procrastinating.