Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
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Okay, limited time available before work, so options only:
What is most important on the battlefield? [Honour]
[] Overwhelming numbers
Pros: Very strong under our current situation, as we have a superior food supply, great logistics and a manpower surplus. Most likely to develop massed combat strategies early. Most likely to improve logistics early.
Cons: Cavalier attitude towards individual death when compounded. Encourages population explosions(remember, this is the cultural basis of "Be fruitful and multiply"). Makes war EXPENSIVE, as mobilizing massed manpower is difficult.
Quantity has a quality of it's own. But quantity versus quality changes over time. Quantity is what drove the conversion to firearms, the ability to leverage massed ranged attackers with minimal training. Quantity is what drove Greece and Rome, with their Elite led Freemen Farmer masses.
It's the best strategy for those with vast tracts of fertile land.
It's the worst strategy if you value womens' rights.
[] Quality training
Pros: Perfectionism is an Honor trait that's likely to benefit more than our military, every walk of life can strive to excel. Elite troops means powerful shock value, as they are more able to resist morale shocks than green troops. Elite troops also plays well on defense.
Cons: Greater costs in defeat. Elite troops train future elite troops. Taking losses will hurt all the more.
Quality is Discipline. It's the rationale behinds Knights, Commandoes, Cataphracts, Archery volleys: That most soldiers will BREAK if they take enough damage fast enough, and that elite units are the best at doing this until the invention of firearms allowed numbers to do the same thing.
It was consistently powerful, the problem is it needed to be backed up by a powerful economy to maintain quality.
It's the best strategy if you have a solid organizational structure to maintain quality of training and equipment.
It's the worst strategy for extended warfare. Anyone using this strategy in the lowland clusterfuck will be kickass until they suddenly die out.
[] Loyalty
Pros: Higher morale, less Stability loss in war. The willingness to obey orders which are suicidal to the individual.
Cons: Loyalty is personal at this tier, rather than to the state, beware the ambitions of the generals. Will cause factionalizing along loyalty lines.
Loyalty is of course, personal loyalty. The loyalty between warriors for each other. The loyalty to family and clan. The loyalty of warrior to warleader and warleader to chiefs. This is the strategy used by warlords in time immemorial, Loyalty requires no infrastructure, only charisma.
It's the best strategy for rising to prominence through chaos, nearly objectively the best if you are based on the lowlands.
It's the worst strategy if your culture is stable, as it will generate fracture points in times of peace.
Mystic Advance possible! [Mystic]
[] Temper superstition (-5 Mysticism)
Mitigates superstitions. Least likely to harm our Golden Age. Least likely to do anything either.
[] Overturn superstition (-10 Mysticism, -1 Stability)
Purge the silly metal thing. Gets it over with quickly, but opportunity costs are a thing.
[] Evolve spiritual value (-7 Mysticism)
Evolve a spiritual value:
-Symphony - We COULD maybe go even more creepy hivemind on people. But It can lead to societal tunnel vision.
-Honorable Death - Refine it, but how? Any ideas?
-Observance - "Maybe we should gather more evidence?" This might help prevent picking up nasty superstitions so easily.
[] Expand spiritual value slots (-7 Mysticism)
A fourth spiritual value slot would be normally quite valuable. But not in wartime.
[] Wait
What is the objective of the fighting? [Goal]
[] Stop raids (Easiest, annoys allies)
[] Humiliate (Hard, +1 Prestige)
[] Degrade sphere of influence (Hardest, +1 Prestige, pleases allies)
Orders for the Stallions [Stallions]
[] Focus efforts on the Thunder Speakers
[] Split efforts between Thunder Speakers and nomads
[] Focus efforts on the nomads
Okay, so we have a combo platter here:
[] Stop raids (Easiest, annoys allies)
[] Focus efforts on the nomads
This set says to do our usual. Drive them off, then we're done. No need to dedicate a lot of effort.
[] Humiliate (Hard, +1 Prestige)
[] Split efforts between Thunder Speakers and nomads OR [] Focus efforts on the Thunder Speakers
This set says to teach the Thunder Speakers a lesson. It gives us some leeway to work in, and aims to deter them from fighting us for a few generations after in nasty myths.
[] Degrade sphere of influence (Hardest, +1 Prestige, pleases allies)
[] Focus efforts on the Thunder Speakers
This set says that leaving the Thunder Speakers with any claim on the lowlands means they can attack us, so we should drive them off the land entirely. Bad idea, because this will leave the Highland Kingdom uncontested in our region and allows them to expand freely. Alliances only last a few generations at most.
Now to catch up on trending strategies and vote.
What is most important on the battlefield? [Honour]
[] Overwhelming numbers
Pros: Very strong under our current situation, as we have a superior food supply, great logistics and a manpower surplus. Most likely to develop massed combat strategies early. Most likely to improve logistics early.
Cons: Cavalier attitude towards individual death when compounded. Encourages population explosions(remember, this is the cultural basis of "Be fruitful and multiply"). Makes war EXPENSIVE, as mobilizing massed manpower is difficult.
Quantity has a quality of it's own. But quantity versus quality changes over time. Quantity is what drove the conversion to firearms, the ability to leverage massed ranged attackers with minimal training. Quantity is what drove Greece and Rome, with their Elite led Freemen Farmer masses.
It's the best strategy for those with vast tracts of fertile land.
It's the worst strategy if you value womens' rights.
[] Quality training
Pros: Perfectionism is an Honor trait that's likely to benefit more than our military, every walk of life can strive to excel. Elite troops means powerful shock value, as they are more able to resist morale shocks than green troops. Elite troops also plays well on defense.
Cons: Greater costs in defeat. Elite troops train future elite troops. Taking losses will hurt all the more.
Quality is Discipline. It's the rationale behinds Knights, Commandoes, Cataphracts, Archery volleys: That most soldiers will BREAK if they take enough damage fast enough, and that elite units are the best at doing this until the invention of firearms allowed numbers to do the same thing.
It was consistently powerful, the problem is it needed to be backed up by a powerful economy to maintain quality.
It's the best strategy if you have a solid organizational structure to maintain quality of training and equipment.
It's the worst strategy for extended warfare. Anyone using this strategy in the lowland clusterfuck will be kickass until they suddenly die out.
[] Loyalty
Pros: Higher morale, less Stability loss in war. The willingness to obey orders which are suicidal to the individual.
Cons: Loyalty is personal at this tier, rather than to the state, beware the ambitions of the generals. Will cause factionalizing along loyalty lines.
Loyalty is of course, personal loyalty. The loyalty between warriors for each other. The loyalty to family and clan. The loyalty of warrior to warleader and warleader to chiefs. This is the strategy used by warlords in time immemorial, Loyalty requires no infrastructure, only charisma.
It's the best strategy for rising to prominence through chaos, nearly objectively the best if you are based on the lowlands.
It's the worst strategy if your culture is stable, as it will generate fracture points in times of peace.
Mystic Advance possible! [Mystic]
[] Temper superstition (-5 Mysticism)
Mitigates superstitions. Least likely to harm our Golden Age. Least likely to do anything either.
[] Overturn superstition (-10 Mysticism, -1 Stability)
Purge the silly metal thing. Gets it over with quickly, but opportunity costs are a thing.
[] Evolve spiritual value (-7 Mysticism)
Evolve a spiritual value:
-Symphony - We COULD maybe go even more creepy hivemind on people. But It can lead to societal tunnel vision.
-Honorable Death - Refine it, but how? Any ideas?
-Observance - "Maybe we should gather more evidence?" This might help prevent picking up nasty superstitions so easily.
[] Expand spiritual value slots (-7 Mysticism)
A fourth spiritual value slot would be normally quite valuable. But not in wartime.
[] Wait
Something's coming. Do we release now or hold it in until we get the big one?
What is the objective of the fighting? [Goal]
[] Stop raids (Easiest, annoys allies)
[] Humiliate (Hard, +1 Prestige)
[] Degrade sphere of influence (Hardest, +1 Prestige, pleases allies)
Orders for the Stallions [Stallions]
[] Focus efforts on the Thunder Speakers
[] Split efforts between Thunder Speakers and nomads
[] Focus efforts on the nomads
Okay, so we have a combo platter here:
[] Stop raids (Easiest, annoys allies)
[] Focus efforts on the nomads
This set says to do our usual. Drive them off, then we're done. No need to dedicate a lot of effort.
[] Humiliate (Hard, +1 Prestige)
[] Split efforts between Thunder Speakers and nomads OR [] Focus efforts on the Thunder Speakers
This set says to teach the Thunder Speakers a lesson. It gives us some leeway to work in, and aims to deter them from fighting us for a few generations after in nasty myths.
[] Degrade sphere of influence (Hardest, +1 Prestige, pleases allies)
[] Focus efforts on the Thunder Speakers
This set says that leaving the Thunder Speakers with any claim on the lowlands means they can attack us, so we should drive them off the land entirely. Bad idea, because this will leave the Highland Kingdom uncontested in our region and allows them to expand freely. Alliances only last a few generations at most.
Now to catch up on trending strategies and vote.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well we still have about (117-70 = 47 voters who have not appeared) so Loyalty could make a come back. I'm actually rather interested to see what it could pop up.
[X][Honour] Quality training
[X][Mystic] Wait
[X][Goal] Humiliate (Hard, +1 Prestige)
[X][Stallions] Focus efforts on the Thunder Speakers
Okay, pretty much the best one I can see.
According to AN the spiritual value improved is random, so I'd gamble on the Wait, since we can't reliably evolve Observance(remember, we're at war, it's more likely to evolve Honorable Death).
And I do not want to push the Thunder Speakers back far enough that we give the Highland Kingdom free land to establish their dominance. They have The Law soon. It'd be hard to dislodge them.
[X][Mystic] Wait
[X][Goal] Humiliate (Hard, +1 Prestige)
[X][Stallions] Focus efforts on the Thunder Speakers
Okay, pretty much the best one I can see.
According to AN the spiritual value improved is random, so I'd gamble on the Wait, since we can't reliably evolve Observance(remember, we're at war, it's more likely to evolve Honorable Death).
And I do not want to push the Thunder Speakers back far enough that we give the Highland Kingdom free land to establish their dominance. They have The Law soon. It'd be hard to dislodge them.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X][Mystic] Overturn superstition (-10 Mysticism, -1 Stability)
[X][Honour] Loyalty
[X][Stallions] Focus efforts on the Thunder Speakers
[X][Goal] Humiliate (Hard, +1 Prestige)
I'm down for the loyalty traits affecting our corruption issue, id like to not leet this happen again, and I agree with Nec that overturning the superstition is basically 5X study metal
[X][Honour] Loyalty
[X][Stallions] Focus efforts on the Thunder Speakers
[X][Goal] Humiliate (Hard, +1 Prestige)
I'm down for the loyalty traits affecting our corruption issue, id like to not leet this happen again, and I agree with Nec that overturning the superstition is basically 5X study metal
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
We already have a semi-hereditary warrior specialist class, so this isn't much of a threat.
We've actually already discussed this exact same problem, twice, interestingly enough.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Why not go for overturning our superstition? Remember what AN said about the observance line? The ST weren't willing to eat the costs for getting rid of their superstitions.
Let's be better.
Also, waiting is just "do nothing"
- Location
- Philippines
What? no his mother was the one who sent the TH the diplo mission and crit failed not him he was still her apprentice at the time.
... That makes it more likely to be a problem, not less.
That would mean this guy is largely been useless and we now need to rely on his worst trait to advance.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
that doesn't make intuitive sense, please explain
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
The guy literally started a golden age, and took his mother's indexing and wrangled a megaproject out of it.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I believe it is something to do with the fact that traits are hard to evolve.
Opportunity costs basically. I'm not voting for anything so I couldn't tell you beyond that.
Spectrum
Tell me a secret~
- Location
- Behind you~
[X] [Honour] Loyalty
[X] [Mystic] Evolve spiritual value (-7 Mysticism)
[X] [Goal] Humiliate (Hard, +1 Prestige)
[X] [Stallions] Focus efforts on the Thunder Speakers
Loyalty is super important given our military march has occasional problems with disloyal/ambitious leaders. Giving them better trained troops just exacerbates that. #s is kinda iffy, great way to take a lot of casualties and war exhaustion.
Humiliate is more than enough, we're simply not built for an extended offensive war. Definitely don't overreach and split efforts, especially since people are even thinking about the hardest goal, that is crazy.
[X] [Mystic] Evolve spiritual value (-7 Mysticism)
[X] [Goal] Humiliate (Hard, +1 Prestige)
[X] [Stallions] Focus efforts on the Thunder Speakers
Loyalty is super important given our military march has occasional problems with disloyal/ambitious leaders. Giving them better trained troops just exacerbates that. #s is kinda iffy, great way to take a lot of casualties and war exhaustion.
Humiliate is more than enough, we're simply not built for an extended offensive war. Definitely don't overreach and split efforts, especially since people are even thinking about the hardest goal, that is crazy.
Going from "random mooks" to "semi-hereditary" isn't terribly important, because people with a knack for combat from outside the military can still get in.
Going from "semi-hereditary" to "hereditary" closes that bit of social mobility, hardening caste lines.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Necratoid doesn't really care about the Golden Age, because a war is happening at the same time. *shrug*
He means that focus on quality means further specialization and thus cement the hereditary nature of a warrior class. Because to get really good you basically need to train since your a kid. Thus naturally lead to cementing hereditary warrior class. And all the problems that are inherent from such a thing.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
I don't see why we would reach hereditary if we are already at semi-hereditary: the jump could have been from mook to full hereditary but was not.
It is for this reason why I do not consider it an issue.
Edit:
@aceraptor
The vote is for quality training, which isn't necessarily "quality." It can thus be considered something like "where do we want the emphasis within our army to lie" and thus needn't cut people off because their starting quality isn't high enough.
Additionally, it's not like people who haven't been training all their lives can't succeed at reaching/beating out the level of those who have, it's just more difficult.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
To whoever said Persians for the East Thunder Horse, you are correct.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
@Academia Nut , what is the narrative logic of the overturn suspicion? does it include one or more study metal?
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Abstract shiny trump massive advance in metallurgy. Not that 5x study metal couldn't evolve observance on its own.
He got elected into a Golden Age .... he is riding his moms coat tails so far. So far he is useless or a failure at diplo. Terrible start.
Not true. I care that the first war in forever is going to synergize with the Golden Age and lead to stupid. Military is his worst stat and its the only one that matters in the voting I've seen.
