Paths of Civilization

Candesce · May 14, 2017

Switching to Overwhelming Numbers, because I think we can actually handle the logistics for it, and we've got all the parts we need to invent the crossbow. It also plays into our existing traits, and is less likely to produce a caste.

[X] [Honour] Overwhelming numbers
[X] [Mystic] Evolve spiritual value (-7 Mysticism)
[X] [Goal] Stop raids (Easiest, annoys allies)
[X] [Stallions] Split efforts between Thunder Speakers and nomads

No7sHere · May 14, 2017

[X] [Honour] Quality training
[X] [Mystic] Evolve spiritual value (-7 Mysticism)
[X] [Goal] Humiliate (Hard, +1 Prestige)
[X] [Stallions] Focus efforts on the Thunder Speakers

Duesal · May 14, 2017

DragonParadox said:
[X] Quality training
[X] Evolve spiritual value (-7 Mysticism)
[X] Humiliate (Hard, +1 Prestige)
[X] Focus efforts on the Thunder Speakers

You need the task tags with the vote. I forgot to add them in initially and just edited mine in.

Sivantic · May 14, 2017

kel said:
Loyalty is good but it can be a double edge sword.

They would all be double edged swords. We should try and get all three because all three help. I believe should grab Loyalty before Quality.

Candesce said:
Because you can cite where AN tells us Loyalty gives us discipline, yes?

Depending on just what kind of loyalties we're talking about, this pick could wreck what discipline we have.

Can you cite where Quality gives discipline yes?

From what AN just explained, having individual quality wrecks discipline as they are more likely to just do their own thing.

DragonParadox said:
Actually there were some quotes from when we were talking about the Old Stallion and his supposed treason from taking the defeated nomad tribes' oaths. the GM specifically said that even among the People loyalty tended to be to individuals first, specifically local figures. So yeah loyalty is probably bad.

He wasn't actually treasonous. The defeated nomads would only give their loyalty to the one that defeated them. That was making the best of a bad situation

@Academia Nut Since you explained the other two options better, could you explain Loyalty a little more?

Candesce · May 14, 2017

Sivantic said:
Can you cite where Quality gives discipline yes?

I never claimed it did. I think it's entirely possible none of them give discipline at tier 1.

But if you look around the modern world, you'll find a lot of armies built around loyalties with shit for discipline.

DragonParadox · May 14, 2017

Sivantic said:
He wasn't actually treasonous. The defeated nomads would only give their loyalty to the one that defeated them. That was making the best of a bad situation

@Academia Nut Since you explained the other two options better, could you explain Loyalty a little more?

That's the point I was making, he was not being treasonous not only because the nomads could not understand loyalty to a higher authority, but because the People themselves barely do so. Loyalty to the king is already a very slender reed for most people, lets not make it even more fragile.

BungieONI · May 14, 2017

pblur said:
Hmm. I'm pretty sure that charioteer is a pretty skilled fighter. I don't know what the threshold would be between soldier (or cavalryman) and warrior. I get the gradient, but what the distinction? And wouldn't training be the way to get soldiers, not quantity?

The soldier and a warrior is a very fine one.

A warrior fights with himself and a few comrades.

A soldier fights with all of his fellows in unison. This is the origin of those ideas that a soldier is a cog in the army kinda deal.

Right now everyone including us still have mostly warriors. The Xoh are the closest to finding the distinction and leaping on it like a rabid Honey Badger.

A charioteer is a skilled fighter. This really only makes them a more skilled warrior. Chariot charges encourage the development of massed charging by simple dint of effectiveness increasing if you have more chariots charging with you.

hylas240 · May 14, 2017

[X] [Honour] Quality training
[X] [Mystic] Overturn superstition (-10 Mysticism, -1 Stability)
[X] [Goal] Humiliate (Hard, +1 Prestige)
[X] [Stallions] Split efforts between Thunder Speakers and nomads

The reason I want to overturn the superstition is actually pretty simple. We've had 3ish turns taken up by admin heroes, so the belief is now deeply entrenched. We're also unlikely to have another turn of free operation, as we just elected another admin hero (which just took another turn from us). Right now, we would need multiple study metal actions to unseat the superstition...which will cost us 2-3 stability and 4-6 mysticism as well as 2-3 [Main] action slots.

I think it's just best to get rid of it now, rather than spend 2-3 mains and 2-3 turns getting rid of the damn thing.

Humiliation is dangerous, but better than letting them run rampant. The reason humiliation is dangerous is because the TS's traits (remember when the nomads swore a blood feud against us?) will likely have them remember this insult, and subsequently be more likely to betray us/ally against us in the future.

I want to split attention because the nomads are testing our defenses. If they don't get a somewhat significant response, they'll take it as us being weak and step up the raids substantially (since we have a lot of prestige and are generally very wealthy). Though keeping some focus on the TS is important otherwise they'll catch their breath.

I'm completely confident that our admin hero will be able to handle the stress on our logistics.

tryrar · May 14, 2017

hylas240 said:
[X] [Honour] Quality training
[X] [Mystic] Overturn superstition (-10 Mysticism, -1 Stability)
[X] [Goal] Humiliate (Hard, +1 Prestige)
[X] [Stallions] Split efforts between Thunder Speakers and nomads

The reason I want to overturn the superstition is actually pretty simple. We've had 3ish turns taken up by admin heroes, so the belief is now deeply entrenched. We're also unlikely to have another turn of free operation, as we just elected another admin hero (which just took another turn from us). Right now, we would need multiple study metal actions to unseat the superstition...which will cost us 2-3 stability and 4-6 mysticism as well as 2-3 [Main] action slots.

I think it's just best to get rid of it now, rather than spend 2-3 mains and 2-3 turns getting rid of the damn thing.

Humiliation is dangerous, but better than letting them run rampant. The reason humiliation is dangerous is because the TS's traits (remember when the nomads swore a blood feud against us?) will likely have them remember this insult, and subsequently be more likely to betray us/ally against us in the future.

I want to split attention because the nomads are testing our defenses. If they don't get a somewhat significant response, they'll take it as us being weak and step up the raids substantially (since we have a lot of prestige and are generally very wealthy). Though keeping some focus on the TS is important otherwise they'll catch their breath.

I'm completely confident that our admin hero will be able to handle the stress on our logistics.

Better to attempt to evolve observance so we get a lot less cruft in the future. we rarely get the chance to evolve traits, so we shouldn't let the opportunity slip by.

VoidZero · May 14, 2017

It can be argued that our universal militia training provided higher base quality for our military regardless of quantity/quality/loyalty. So quantity wouldn't be mess of drafted farmers and would instead be mass of militia armed and train by state. On the other hand, quality would be drilled warriors that are expensive and smaller in number.

Loyalty (my vote) would akin to add burning love for The People to both militia and warriors, so a general buff?

Andres · May 14, 2017

Academia Nut said:
Provinces: [Main] Build Wall x2 - Blackmouth, [Main] Build Watchtowers - Redhills

This is 6 Secondaries worth of actions, where we normally only get 5 with the Law's bonus. Probably the result of Heroic Admin.

hylas240 · May 14, 2017

Sivantic said:
From what AN just explained, having individual quality wrecks discipline as they are more likely to just do their own thing.

@Academia Nut Since you explained the other two options better, could you explain Loyalty a little more?

Your statement is incorrect, as AN only said that choosing quality would see a definite improvement in individual warriors. Nowhere in his post did he say quality would wreck discipline.

Sivantic · May 14, 2017

DragonParadox said:
That's the point I was making, he was not being treasonous not only because the nomads could not understand loyalty to a higher authority, but because the People themselves barely do so. Loyalty to the king is already a very slender reed for most people, lets not make it even more fragile.

???

Why would it make it make it more fragile?

Loyalty would make it stronger.

Varano · May 14, 2017

[X] [Stallions] Focus efforts on the Thunder Speakers
[X] [Honour] Overwhelming numbers
[X] [Mystic] Evolve spiritual value (-7 Mysticism)
[X] [Goal] Humiliate (Hard, +1 Prestige)

Sivantic · May 14, 2017

hylas240 said:
Your statement is incorrect, as AN only said that choosing quality would see a definite improvement in individual warriors. Nowhere in his post did he say quality would wreck discipline.

It creates better individual warriors with no respect to massed warfare. Look to any sort of team competition. Being good at something doesn't exactly lead to cooperation.

hylas240 · May 14, 2017

tryrar said:
Better to attempt to evolve observance so we get a lot less cruft in the future. we rarely get the chance to evolve traits, so we shouldn't let the opportunity slip by.

The upgrade is totally random, so no it's not. We have a 30% chance of evolving observance.

DragonParadox · May 14, 2017

Sivantic said:
???

Why would it make it make it more fragile?

Loyalty would make it stronger.

Because it would strengthen the loyalty to their local commanders, the one they are emotionally invested in, the one that is real to them.

VoidZero · May 14, 2017

Andres110 said:
This is 6 Secondaries worth of actions, where we normally only get 5 with the Law's bonus. Probably the result of Heroic Admin.

The defense policy boosted some of those i think? But the economy cost is high as well.

hylas240 · May 14, 2017

Sivantic said:
It creates better individual warriors with no respect to massed warfare. Look to any sort of team competition. Being good at something doesn't exactly lead to cooperation.

That's is your view point. You specifically stated that AN said:

Sivantic said:
having individual quality wrecks discipline as they are more likely to just do their own thing.

Which is totally false. I don't care if you are arguing your point (as it is valid), but this is straight up lying to make your side of the discussion look better.

DragonParadox · May 14, 2017

hylas240 said:
The upgrade is totally random, so no it's not. We have a 30% chance of evolving observance.

The GM called it semi-random, so there must be some way to influence it.

VoidZero · May 14, 2017

DragonParadox said:
The GM called it semi-random, so there must be some way to influence it.

Does our current choice have influence on myth choice?

Edit: the rest are war related so i can't see any.

ctulhuslp · May 14, 2017

sidestory said:
We have, we just don't have a standing army, thats a difference

We have raiding parties of individual warriors. We do not have anything resembling coherent units, ranks and other stuff that actually would mean discipline.
Also, AN above has confirmed that on first level, Numbers would give a mix of human wave and proper massed warfare while Quality would give better trained individuals.

Kiba · May 14, 2017

Andres110 said:
Quality would result in less women in the army, wouldn't it?

You mean if women don't pass the fitness test? I don't think it reduce the number of warriors in our army, though.

hylas240 · May 14, 2017

DragonParadox said:
The GM called it semi-random, so there must be some way to influence it.

Since this entire mid turn is revolving around war, it's incredibly likely that the roll is skewed towards honorable death.

Deathbybunnies · May 14, 2017

Andres110 said:
Quality would result in less women in the army, wouldn't it?

Maybe? I think it's probable that the profession is already very male-dominated; quality is the first step towards a meritocracy, and in a pure meritocracy it becomes "any woman strong enough can join, there's just less of them" rather than "woman can't join because women are terrible warriors."

Andres110 said:
This is 6 Secondaries worth of actions, where we normally only get 5 with the Law's bonus. Probably the result of Heroic Admin.

Yeah, deliberately not doubling an action until the secondaries combine into a Main sounds like an Admin roll to me.

Paths of Civilization

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Passing Flan 布丁魔王

Passing Flan 布丁魔王

Passing Flan 布丁魔王