Paths of Civilization

Kiba · May 13, 2017

[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[X] Remain quiet (Next king is probably standard)

I changed my mind. He is not the hero we need. A war leader is needed, but where is a March king when you need it?

wingstrike96 · May 13, 2017

[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[X] Remain quiet (Next king is probably standard)

NotteBoy97 · May 13, 2017

[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[X] Remain quiet (Next king is probably standard)

Yeah I really don't want to lose legitimacy even if is only a chance especially if we start going down the path of hereditary it will be hard for us to change it.

McLuvin · May 13, 2017

lioli said:
Loss of Legitimacy

Been changed to smalll potential to lose legitimacy

lioli said:
while retaining Yehlmyn's Heroic Admin in a lesser capacity,

has never worked like that before with our other heroes, I'm pretty sure, especially not with an Admin hero

lioli said:
Mediocre Martial works against us

He can delegate to a war chief as his mother did to great affect, his admin means he will almost always get the best man for the job, meaning that he might just end up being better in the long term for war actions then someone with all Average stats

Sivantic said:
It is very good to pass up if his stats don't address the problems we are facing

See above please

Lailoken · May 13, 2017

We have maxed legitimacy and an easy way to restore it using art, which is also maxed. What we don't have is a reliable supply of hero units, especially compared to other civs- and look at everything just the one we currently have has accomplished.

This should be an easy choice.

godofsmallthings · May 13, 2017

veekie said:
Contested facts:
-The appearance of nepotism is what matters historically. Whether it actually IS nepotism, future chiefs would be able to cite precedent when pushing for their own children in that "Look, Magwyna did it too", which would also undermine the message sent to the Stallion Tribes.
-While normally he would be an excellent candidate, with potential war on the line, he is...not very excellent. It may well be ideal with Attrikwyn's son to get elected s a Martial Good(probably?) king instead.

We don't need a martial candidate to do well. The son has Heroic Admin. He will delegate it to the best man/woman available, just like his mother did.

Plus you are turning down a heroic candidate for a hypothetical good candidate who may not even exist.

A bird in hand is worth two in the bush. He is the best candidate and short changing him for appearances sake is just tragic. It might even reduce our already low rate of spawning Heroes.

sidestory · May 13, 2017

Kiba said:
[Main] New Trail
[Secondary] Switch policy - Defense
[Secondary] Proclaim Glory (if necessary)

Actually the whole point of the idea with New trails is to double it, in order to take advantage of the narrativ exponential increase that a double main action does provide, as we have seen that single Main might help to migiate the problem but can't solve it

Also if you vote for the Son you don''t get to decide the next actions anyway as the Hero Admin decides what will be the best for us, so planning for Proclaim Glory in this case is kinda useless as the one case where it would be useful, will also be the one where we won't get to decide it anyway

Powerofmind · May 13, 2017

Sivantic said:
I never said they would be exceptional only that they would be good.

@Academia Nut We really need something cleared out

What are the stats of the average King in relation to this scale you mentioned?

notgreat said:
BTW, here's the source for the standard kings:

Jump to shows it, the average pick is average only.

Lydia · May 13, 2017

McLuvin said:
has never worked like that before with our other heroes, I'm pretty sure, especially not with an Admin hero

We did it with a martial hero once as we took him as war chief.

Entropy Engineer · May 13, 2017

[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[X] Support son (Chance of -1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])

Sivantic · May 13, 2017

McLuvin said:
He can delegate to a war chief as his mother did to great affect, his admin means he will almost always get the best man for the job, meaning that he might just end up being better in the long term for war actions then someone with all Average stats

Thay puts into question why show the stat in the first place. If his bad stats are immediately nulled, why would AN tell us?

bluefur87 · May 13, 2017

McLuvin said:
Been changed to smalll potential to lose legitimacy

No it hasn't, it's been changed to a chance.

That means we have to consider it a possibility, and since it pulls us down out of green stability, we should absolutely consider the ramifications.

McLuvin · May 13, 2017

Dirk93 said:
We did it with a martial hero once as we took him as war chief.

Once.

Once.....

How many other times has it worked out like that? We've passed up chances to have Heroic leaders and gained absolutely no benefit from it before. That happened several times.

Also it was with a warchief, someone who can just flat out do what he wants on the battlefield. A Admin hero would be restrained by the real king not liking someone basically running his kingdom for him and doing a better job.

Kingofbooks · May 13, 2017

[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[X] Support son (Chance of -1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])

Abby Normal · May 13, 2017

One thing to note for the discussion about overflow...our heroic hero certainly didn't make it a priority to spend the excess, so at the very least it was less important than expansion and stability and walls

Motoko · May 13, 2017

[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[X] Support son (Chance of -1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])

bluefur87 · May 13, 2017

McLuvin said:
Once.

Once.....

How many other times has it worked out like that? We've passed up chances to have Heroic leaders and gained absolutely no benefit from it before. That happened several times.

Also it was with a warchief, someone who can just flat out do what he wants on the battlefield. A Admin hero would be restrained by the real king not liking someone basically running his kingdom for him and doing a better job.

The only time we've truly passed up a heroic leader is when they were actively fighting the tax reforms, thus working against our interest.

He still founded a province after fighting off an army of nomads. His son was somewhat scripted to tempt us into electing him, so I'm not sure I count him.

McLuvin · May 13, 2017

bluefur87 said:
No it hasn't, it's been changed to a chance.

That means we have to consider it a possibility, and since it pulls us down out of green stability, we should absolutely consider the ramifications.

We've been negative stability for several turns at a time before but now we are worrying about dropping out of Green?
Also it's already been discussed how to easily counteract that

Sivantic said:
Thay puts into question why show the stat in the first place. If his bad stats are immediately nulled, why would AN tell us?

To tell us there is a potential that he might try to be an idiot and take over the army himself? It's unlikely but the possibility is there

notgreat · May 13, 2017

Lol, I give up on this thread. It moves too fast for well-considered and well-informed arguments to actually matter, it's all knee-jerk reactions and uninformed opinions. There's literally nothing to think that our average king is good, it's been stated multiple times (and I even just brought up a quote of one of them) that our average king is all-average in stats.

The "we're about to go to war" argument would have a lot more weight if "small chance of triggering war" wasn't the currently leading vote by far. The perception of nepotism is a legit argument. Not enough to convince me, but the sheer amount of falsities being thrown up by its supporters is kinda ridiculous.

(Also how the -1.5 stability option won despite no arguments in favor to it)

I'm pulling a Sightsear and coming back later, maybe. Cya!

Lailoken · May 13, 2017

Isn't the rule that the heir can't be of the same tribe as the king? That would seem to largely rule out inheritance.

McLuvin · May 13, 2017

bluefur87 said:
The only time we've truly passed up a heroic leader is when they were actively fighting the tax reforms, thus working against our interest.

He still founded a province after fighting off an army of nomads. His son was somewhat scripted to tempt us into electing him, so I'm not sure I count him.

His son was still a heroic leader, so he counts.

hylas240 · May 13, 2017

Sivantic said:
He is Heroic, he is really good at one thing and the rest of his stats had been lowered.

It is very good to pass up if his stats don't address the problems we are facing

Except he isn't the best canditate simply heroic in Administration. We have possible conflict next turn, having someone good at war would be much better.

I never said they would be exceptional only that they would be good.

@Academia Nut We really need something cleared out

What are the stats of the average King in relation to this scale you mentioned?

What is the rating of our War Chief?

What is the difference between a War Chief with high Martial and a King with high Martial?

Sivantic said:
Except we know that the standard King is Good at everything, if not exceptional.

Yeah, you said "good at everything, if not exceptional".

The standard king is average all across the board. They aren't good or exceptional, they just don't have an area that they're weak in.

Tylonius · May 13, 2017

I look forward to the day we roll a Heroic Martial, Diplomacy, Administration, Mystical Hero.

And then need to turn them down for political reasons.

veekie · May 13, 2017

Lailoken said:
We have maxed legitimacy and an easy way to restore it using art, which is also maxed. What we don't have is a reliable supply of hero units, especially compared to other civs- and look at everything just the one we currently have has accomplished.

This should be an easy choice.

The issue is that we can only trigger a Golden Age under Magwyna's rule if Stability stays at 3 until the end of turn. I'm unwilling to taint her legacy with "oh she also made her son her heir, which is as it should be" in the future.

Precedent is arguably more important than Heroes. We've rebuffed two heroes to date because they are not the best options for setting precedent. This third one still can win on his own merits, but having REFUSED to make things hereditary, this sends the wrong message once it gets codified in myth.

Potato and Chip · May 13, 2017

[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[X] Remain quiet (Next king is probably standard)

Paths of Civilization

In Madness Fallen

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

Herald of Iron to The People