Paths of Civilization

Powerofmind · May 10, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
@Powerofmind , search AN posts within last day or two. He explicitly said we would see effects of Stability 3 if we stayed there longer.

tenchifew said:
...
Well, since AN explicitly said we need to keep stabilty at 3 for some time to find out, I think you are wrong.

...and all the sarcasm. Is it truly necessary?

Well the potential for that has already been reset. The first thing done last turn was a project kick to bring us to 2. Can't make progress towards a bonus that is explicitly 'in a row' if you break off from it at the first opportunity.

maximillian · May 10, 2017

2xMachina said:
I'm planning to purge them by diluting them.

Break their powerbase by not leaving their leaders there. Install other Chief into March
Transfer their leaders into other provinces so that they'll learn to deal with governing our normal people (if they even get voted in).
Make the semi-nomads minority spread out, so that they have to adapt to our normal people.

This ought to be able to eliminate their culture pretty fast.

We can also drive it along by taboo'ing their usual practices.
Being sexist? Off to the Black soil duties.
Too aggressive? Time out with the Shamans.

EDIT: IMO, our main problem with the March is... with all those Nomads, we never did let them integrate with our normal population. So... they're mainly practicing their ways. We need to break them up, the way we do with refugees.

Joseph Stalin would be proud.

tenchifew · May 10, 2017

Powerofmind said:
Well the potential for that has already been reset. The first thing done last turn was a project kick to bring us to 2. Can't make progress towards a bonus that is explicitly 'in a row' if you break off from it at the first opportunity.

And most of the people who advocate for high stability never advocated not to spend it if necessary.

Now?
It is necessary.
If we can get it to 3 and stay at three for some turns, I will be really happy to see what it will bring us.

But the most important advantage of high stability is the possibility to spend it in a crisis.

Like we are doing right now.

DragonParadox · May 10, 2017

maximillian said:
Joseph Stalin would be proud.

Don't be silly. He would just kill the leaders... then work his way to their families, their friends and probably their pets. After that the mass killings would start.

Cultural assimilation is not genocide.

Kiba · May 10, 2017

Guys! Look at what I found. The first known ropeway was documented in south China 250 BC. The Chinese sure invented a lot of things.

Do you know what this mean? Cable cars. We need to invent the concept of waterwheel and somehow marry to it to ropes.

Alas, it's an incredibly unlikely combination. One can dream.

BungieONI · May 10, 2017

Kiba said:
Guys! Look at what I found. The first known ropeway was documented in south China 250 BC. The Chinese sure invented a lot of things.

Do you know what this mean? Cable cars. We need to invent the concept of waterwheel and somehow marry to it to ropes.

Alas, it's an incredibly unlikely combination. One can dream.

I like the way you think.

We probs already have rope, and we have wheeled carts. We just need a weirdo mixing the two.

Powerofmind · May 10, 2017

tenchifew said:
And most of the people who advocate for high stability never advocated not to spend it if necessary.

Now?
It is necessary.
If we can get it to 3 and stay at three for some turns, I will be really happy to see what it will bring us.

But the most important advantage of high stability is the possibility to spend it in a crisis.

Like we are doing right now.

This isn't a crisis. This is an opportunity vote. The thread is taking this opportunity to snub people they generally dislike. If this was a crisis, I might agree with you, but even you're spending stability ostensibly for the purpose of fucking over some guy you don't like, and in the same breath grasping at the opportunity you've been presented with.

We will never see a stability maintained bonus, because the thread as a collective cannot possibly maintain the voting discipline necessary not to lose stability on these opportunity votes (not even mentioning that CA will almost certainly trigger between one and two times, assuming the bonus is for ~3 turns of stab 3, each having a ~40% chance of automatically breaking the streak)

pbluekan · May 10, 2017

[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

notgreat · May 10, 2017

@Academia Nut
1) Does the 3-stability chain effect required continuous 3 or merely "end of turn" 3?
2) Does the stability gain get capped during admin rolls? (That is, if we're at 3 and vote to get -1 and +1, is there a chance we end up at 2 because 3+1 capped to 3, then -1 to 2 stability)
3) If we finish a Megaproject at 1 or 2 econ, do we get a free policy switch off of Megaproject Support since the policy can't continue at full power? If not, do we get a switch if provides must expand economy while finishing the Megaproject? (I'm assuming that a Megaproject counts as a task and this no free switches while in the middle of one)

tenchifew said:
But the most important advantage of high stability is the possibility to spend it in a crisis.

Like we are doing right now.

No we're not? Current bandwagon is keeping us at either 2 or 3 stability. We're spending 1 econ and .5 stability.

I was pushing to spend the greatest safe amount of stability in refugees, but people weren't buying: they wanted either the lowest amount or the recklessly dangerous maximum. So we're keeping our high stability, not spending it.

tenchifew · May 10, 2017

Powerofmind said:
This isn't a crisis. This is an opportunity vote. The thread is taking this opportunity to snub people they generally dislike. If this was a crisis, I might agree with you, but even you're spending stability ostensibly for the purpose of fucking over some guy you don't like, and in the same breath grasping at the opportunity you've been presented with.

We will never see a stability maintained bonus, because the thread as a collective cannot possibly maintain the voting discipline necessary not to lose stability on these opportunity votes (not even mentioning that CA will almost certainly trigger between one and two times, assuming the bonus is for ~3 turns of stab 3, each having a ~40% chance of automatically breaking the streak)

You were the one trying to convince people to not go above 0 or 1 stability.

This said, I am all for spending stability as long as we can raise it afterwards.
Now, that I know there is a boon to keep it at max for some time?

I will try to convince people to try it out, if the situation allows it.

And it is not a crisis yet.
It will be.
Soon.

Snubbing people I dislike?
No, not at all. I just look at the march, with its nepotism, nearly hereditary rulers and land ownership and basically slaves, and say that I do not want the People to go that way.
I do not dislike their representative but their mentality, which is drfting farther and farther away from what we built for the People for hundreds of years.

So no, as long as the stallion tribes try their hardest to lose the values of the People, I will not vote for one of theirs to become king to spread their influence even further.

maximillian · May 10, 2017

DragonParadox said:
Don't be silly. He would just kill the leaders... then work his way to their families, their friends and probably their pets. After that the mass killings would start.

Cultural assimilation is not genocide.

Mass Population displacement mixed with removal of elites and criminalisation of cultural practices is however.
We are not conquers and the stalions aren't a conquered people, we can't in good faith brutalize a large segment of our people. That way leads seething resentment and a hopelessness that leads to revolt. Furthermore do keep in mind that that would be setting a precedent. People are happy to see thier opponents culled, but a time will come where they would be the ones getting culled.

DragonParadox · May 10, 2017

maximillian said:
Mass Population displacement mixed with removal of elites and criminalisation of cultural practices is however.
We are not conquers and the stalions aren't a conquered people, we can't in good faith brutalize a large segment of our people. That way leads seething resentment and a hopelessness that leads to revolt. Furthermore do keep in mind that that would be setting a precedent. People are happy to see thier opponents culled, but a time will come where they would be the ones getting culled.

Which is why it should not be done abruptly. If we tried doing it over a generation or two it would be violent and breed more violence (though still not by any stretch of the imagination genocide). Do it over half a millennium and it's natural cultural drift.

Academia Nut · May 10, 2017

notgreat said:
1) Does the 3-stability chain effect required continuous 3 or merely "end of turn" 3?
2) Does the stability gain get capped during admin rolls? (That is, if we're at 3 and vote to get -1 and +1, is there a chance we end up at 2 because 3+1 capped to 3, then -1 to 2 stability)
3) If we finish a Megaproject at 1 or 2 econ, do we get a free policy switch off of Megaproject Support since the policy can't continue at full power? If not, do we get a switch if provides must expand economy while finishing the Megaproject? (I'm assuming that a Megaproject counts as a task and this no free switches while in the middle of one)

1.) Entire turn at stability 3
2.) It could, but I would only say that a crit fail on the roll would result in something so dickish
3.) The free switch will occur after a main turn decision if things aren't in place. Because of the Law, its not exactly "free" because it results in the same action economy, but basically if you get to a midterm with no actions available for the policy to work on, everyone will go "Should we change this?"

Kiba · May 10, 2017

BungieONI said:
I like the way you think.

We probs already have rope, and we have wheeled carts. We just need a weirdo mixing the two.

Unfortunately, we don't have much mechanical knowledge yet, so we can't even put shamans to work there. And 250 BC? It's a looooooooooong time away.

If we achieve True City status, we should be able to spur more learning, though.

Bozwevial · May 10, 2017

[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

pblur · May 10, 2017

tenchifew said:
You were the one campaigning hard to not go above 0 or 1 stability.

This said, I am all for spending stability as long as we can raise it afterwards.
Now, that I know there is a boon to keep it at max for some time?

I will try to convince people to try it out, if the situation allows it.

And it is not a crisis yet.
It will be.
Soon.

Snubbing people I dislike?
No, not at all. I just look at the march, with its nepotism, nearly hereditary rulers and land ownership and basically slaves, and say that I do not want the People to go that way.
I do not dislike their representative but their mentality, which is drfting farther and farther away from what we built for the People for hundreds of years.

So no, as long as the stallion tribes try their hardest to lose the values of the People, I will not vote for one of theirs to become king to spread their influence even further.

I'm personally not opposed to a Stallion King. And I'm not TOO concerned about sexism; I mostly lump it into my 'over-stratification' concern. But when we're given a double heroic leader who has the right position on the top priority issue created by this update, I'll take it. And accept the chance to push against social stratification as a nice bonus.

We need to integrate the March. It has almost all of our values. They built a forest in the plains. They're strictly non-offensive, despite having the vestiges of an Honor-in-Battle culture. They ARE People in more than name. We need to integrate them to correct the growing difference between us. And I'm willing to meet them halfway on some stuff. If we get a Family First Honor trait in exchange for merging our social structures in to one, I'm quite fine with that. We can mutate the meaning of family to include community in some later upgrade.

Powerofmind · May 10, 2017

tenchifew said:
You were the one campaigning hard to not go above 0 or 1 stability.

This said, I am all for spending stability as long as we can raise it afterwards.
Now, that I know there is a boon to keep it at max for some time?

I will try to convince people to try it out, if the situation allows it.

And it is not a crisis yet.
It will be.
Soon.

Snub people I dislike?
No, not at all. I just look at the march, with its nepotism, nearly hereditary rulers and land ownership and basically slaves, and say that I do not want the People to go that way.
I do not dislike their representative but their mentality, which is drfting farther and farther away from what we built for the People for hundreds of years.

So no, as long as the stallion tribes try their hardest to lose the values of the People, I will not vote for one of theirs to become king to spread their influence even further.

And that was back in the olden days of not even having LoO proper. I've been fine with higher stability since then, because LoO will naturally spend it down all on it's own, preventing most of my issues with maintained high stability.

It's not a crisis. It won't be a crisis. There is no world in which our current situation can become a crisis. Unless you've got some incredible insight I can't see, there is nothing in our prevailing choice of actions or situation that suggests we're about to hit another crisis event.

tenchifew · May 10, 2017

Powerofmind said:
And that was back in the olden days of not even having LoO proper. I've been fine with higher stability since then, because LoO will naturally spend it down all on it's own, preventing most of my issues with maintained high stability.

It's not a crisis. It won't be a crisis. There is no world in which our current situation can become a crisis. Unless you've got some incredible insight I can't see, there is nothing in our prevailing choice of actions or situation that suggests we're about to hit another crisis event.

Issues that were mentioned or manifested themselves...
When exactly?

Issues that, according to AN, seem to be positive ones?

But well, I just hope that your gift of farsight is strong enough.

DragonParadox · May 10, 2017

pblur said:
I'm personally not opposed to a Stallion King. And I'm not TOO concerned about sexism; I mostly lump it into my 'over-stratification' concern. But when we're given a double heroic leader who has the right position on the top priority issue created by this update, I'll take it. And accept the chance to push against social stratification as a nice bonus.

We need to integrate the March. It has almost all of our values. They built a forest in the plains. They're strictly non-offensive, despite having the vestiges of an Honor-in-Battle culture. They ARE People in more than name. We need to integrate them to correct the growing difference between us. And I'm willing to meet them halfway on some stuff. If we get a Family First Honor trait in exchange for merging our social structures in to one, I'm quite fine with that. We can mutate the meaning of family to include community in some later upgrade.

I agree with almost everything you said but Family First in a system like ours would cripple us with corruption long before we could shift the value.

pblur · May 10, 2017

DragonParadox said:
I agree with almost everything you said but Family First in a system like ours would cripple us with corruption long before we could shift the value.

I don't think it would be a radical change from current practice.

DocMatoi · May 10, 2017

pblur said:
I don't think it would be a radical change from current practice.

It would CODIFY bad practice. Right now, its just an unfortunate fact of life. But to enforce it? You must be outta your gotdamn mind if you think thats a good idea.
Also, what part of 'nascent raging sexists' did you not get?

Powerofmind · May 10, 2017

tenchifew said:
Issues that were mentioned or manifested themselves...
When exactly?

Issues that, according to AN, seem to be positive ones?

But well, I just hope that your gift of farsight is strong enough.

Issues AN himself noted exist but are likely hidden as they're generally dice mechanics. Stability has differing effects in each general era, and not all of them are explicitly positive or negative at positive or negative stability. Those are AN's words. I was just the only person speculating that in this era, the potential negative effects of high stability could stagnate our ability to move on to the next era. Hell, I'm fairly sure I was one of perhaps two people speculating that the negative effects of high stability even existed.

tenchifew · May 10, 2017

DocMatoi said:
It would CODIFY bad practice. Right now, its just an unfortunate fact of life. But to enforce it? You must be outta your gotdamn mind if you think thats a good idea.
Also, what part of 'nascent raging sexists' did you not get?

While I generally agree with you, let's not begin to insult each other?

There is more than enough of that in thread as is.

tenchifew · May 10, 2017

Powerofmind said:
Issues AN himself noted exist but are likely hidden as they're generally dice mechanics. Stability has differing effects in each general era, and not all of them are explicitly positive or negative at positive or negative stability. Those are AN's words. I was just the only person speculating that in this era, the potential negative effects of high stability could stagnate our ability to move on to the next era. Hell, I'm fairly sure I was one of perhaps two people speculating that the negative effects of high stability even existed.

No, you were not.
You also succeeded to convince a lot of voters of your unfounded speculation, that lastly costed us the tax reform.

And you speculated that high stability would make the People "stagnant". It made us "emboldened".
I would say you were quite gravely mistaken with your speculations here.

Necratoid · May 10, 2017

redzonejoe said:
Last time we blamed the dead instead of metal. It created a whole new caste and i guarantee you that we still avoid dead bodies. People find blame for things, and the new copper mine was convenient.

Bodies were moved and plague broke out. Taboos against haphazardly handling the dead aren't a bad thing and it did help things... particularly with all infrastructural reorganization that The People do.

redzonejoe said:
Now you and others are blaming our convenient new(ish) trait, and grew cycle continues. Even though there's no proof and only idle speculation that everybody seems inclined to accept without criticism.

Star Fall leading to Star Plagues did this as well. The People have established 'Cause and Effect' through observance. They have not gotten the concept of 'Correlation doesn't automatically equal Causation'.

The 'Metal equals Disease' rumor is a result of them not being methodical enough in how they think about things. The trait that determines how The People think about things is the one that directly effect the way things are thought about.

In short... I see your conclusion as wrong.

Paths of Civilization

In Madness Fallen

Civilised Sheep

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

In Madness Fallen

Somethin's Fucky ...

Civilised Sheep

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn

In Madness Fallen

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn

Theoretical Lover of Girls

In Madness Fallen