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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Study Metal
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom
[X] [Kick] The Garden

It seems kind of a waste to use both secondaries on building mines when we can have one for studying metal and perhaps improving mining/smelting techniques. Or use one on improving relations with the Highland Kingdom and getting our hands on that opium, which is pretty important for improving surgical techniques (goes well with our relatively advanced medical knowledge). Good relations with the Highland Kingdom is pretty important in the long run. Don't want to get caught up in their wars, but they are the least terrible of our neighbors being relatively civilized and not conducting blood sacrifices. Plus the recent centralization and new king means they might be a potential enemy if we don't improve relations.
 
[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[X] [Kick] The Garden
 
Karugus said:
I don't think you understand the enormity of a Salt Gift. This is the Chalcolithic equivalent of Mansa Musa accidentally the Egyptian economy on his trip to Mecca. There's a reason it gains prestige and costs as much diplo as a cheap Megaproject costs econ. There's no way this doesn't get an audience with the king unless the King is deliberately trying to snub us. Which would be a bad idea- 'gets over civil war, consolidating and reforming along the lines of his mysterious northern neighbor, said neighbor comes along with a massive gift for him' accepting said gift is proof of his power, legitimacy, and policies in a lot of ways. Rejecting said gift does nothing but potentially make an enemy and weakens his position.


Uh, why would we care all that much about them going to war with the Xohyssiri? Our trade with the Xoh was never going to be all that reliable and the purpose of our trade expedition to them was never for a reliable trade partner.

As for giving the Gift Salt after the trade mission- why? The fact the Gift Salt isn't a continuous obligation is a good thing here. Once we gift the salt and get whatever they decide to reciprocate- it's over. We've probably garnered good will in the act, but it isn't a long term obligation.
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I didn't say it was a continual obligation, I said it was more valuable after we had trade relations. After that comment from AN, it's even more important that we have trade with them first so we can be sure to get the absolute best from them
BlueFlamingWings said:
One thing to remember is that Bronze is not a naturally occurring alloy. There'll never be a Bronze Mine like a Iron or Silver Mine. It's made from cooper, tin, and a variety of other metals.

So, getting the Mine not only boosts the Economy with a influx of cooper (that may be minted later) but has military applications too.
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That is true, but it isn't as time sensitive as getting the trade mission. We have no idea how long those will be available. The Copper Mine will still be there next turn.
lioli said:
It's been around two turns since the end of the Tax Crisis, and I'd think we have ~3-5 turns from then before the March problem flares into a crisis. The original Ymaryn settlers of the March died out by the end of the crisis, and their children's generation should have died out by now. So, the people that are left are those who don't even have the memory of what our original values and expected behaviors are, nor were they raised by people who did remember. It takes around three generations for people to completely diverge, I think, and we don't have particularly good mobility between provinces as it is... So, striving to better integrate our potentially rebellious province rather than pursue things we can get later strikes me as best.
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That's an excellent reason to main a new Settlement. However maybe we should try and fix relations with the Highland Kingdom and the Thunder Horse first? We cut relations with them a few generations ago and suddenly started opening relations with the Xohyssiri. The Copper Mine will still be available next turn. We have no such guarantee with the Highland Kingdom or the Thunder Horse. They are still picking themselves up and now would be the best time to open trade with them before they start fighting again
Karugus said:
Except no party in the lowlands can afford to attack us. Or at least attack us enough to be a meaningful threat. Everyone in the lowlands hates each other, and would absolutely love for each other to expose themselves by dedicating forces to fighting us. We're not a pushover in terms of military capability, and no one with this much resources to throw around is weak.

As for agitating the TS by doing it, they're way to preoccupied to be concerned about it especially considering they've already ended their recent war against the HK. And courting some favor with the victors would hardly be considered flagrantly violating neutrality.
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Peace pays better than war. We open up trade between them, we provide a neutral party for them to exchange goods with. This is rare chance due to the ceasefire and we have no idea how long it will last. The Copper Mine will still be there next turn.
 
The copper mine will be there next turn, but March is an urgent priority. So we're getting a copper mine so that we can boost trail construction and boost completion of the garden megaproject.
 
Sivantic said:
I didn't say it was a continual obligation, I said it was more valuable after we had trade relations. After that comment from AN, it's even more important that we have trade with them first so we can be sure to get the absolute best from them
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That's opinion. Opinion with no real evidence supporting it. Reopening trade with a massive gift to prove our power and wealth happened far more often than suddenly giving a trade partner a gift.
Sivantic said:
Peace pays better than war. We open up trade between them, we provide a neutral party for them to exchange goods with. This is rare chance due to the ceasefire and we have no idea how long it will last. The Copper Mine will still be there next turn.
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Again, why do you think the ceasefire is suddenly going to end? The Xoh are still dealing with the ETH as well, and the HK would love to have a go at them rather than take a swing at the TS. To say nothing of the fact trading in conflict is not suddenly going to bring down everyone on us.

I just flat out don't see the urgency you're so insistent on here. We can afford to trample on a few toes worst case scenario all things considered. The HK sure as hell won't be mad over the salt, and the TS have much bigger fish to fry. If they pick a fight with the Xoh- well thems the breaks, it's not a massive loss.
 
Karugus said:
Except no party in the lowlands can afford to attack us. Or at least attack us enough to be a meaningful threat. Everyone in the lowlands hates each other, and would absolutely love for each other to expose themselves by dedicating forces to fighting us. We're not a pushover in terms of military capability, and no one with this much resources to throw around is weak.
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Directly. They can't do it with their troops. A Diplo Hero in the wrong place and you get endless sea raids all the time or nomads raids forever. Assuming that they don't have contacts we don't is a bad idea. See the 'Suddenly Inexplicable Mongel Hoard to the Everything' trick for details on how this works.
Karugus said:
As for agitating the TS by doing it, they're way to preoccupied to be concerned about it especially considering they've already ended their recent war against the HK. And courting some favor with the victors would hardly be considered flagrantly violating neutrality.
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Victors? One side got plagued into a civil war and the other side had someone more stupid and annoying to deal with... Its was called off do to lack of interest not because someone actually accomplished anything. At the moment Salt Bombing won't hurt The People diplomatically with anyone.

At the moment... the Lowlands are infamous for being a powder keg. Politics is fun this way.
 
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[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[X] [Kick] The Garden
 
Necratoid said:
Directly. They can't do it with their troops. A Diplo Hero in the wrong place and you get endless sea raids all the time or nomads raids forever. Assuming that they don't have contacts we don't is a bad idea. See the 'Suddenly Inexplicable Mongel Hoard to the Everything' trick for details on how this works.
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How? The HK wouldn't have boats to get to the sea, and would have to go through both the TS and the DP to pull it off. If the TS get a diplo hero, they're far better off using them against the TH fighting them rather than trying to spite us and potentially instigate war against us.

Hurling nomads at us is incredibly risky because if we learn they sent them (wouldn't be super hard to learn) we've got casus belli to kick their ass while they're already bogged down in war. That same example you gave of inexplicable nomad horde also explains why we got away with pissing in literally everyone's cheerios and why they couldn't do the same- because they were way too preoccupied dealing with the fallout and fighting each other to actually retaliate against us for our shenanigans. If they threw a horde at us, that's a secondary war mission backing Stallions, a policy change to offensive, and a major war action to fuck with the instigator. It's only when we're preoccupied on another front that assaulting us becomes viable, and we're the exact opposite of preoccupied. Our martial has never been higher and is growing every turn thanks to the Stallions, we're stable, wealthy, and diplomatically secure.

The fact of the matter is, everyone neighboring us needs our neutrality and non-committance more than we need peace with them. We can't just look at the picture of 'how can they theoretically hurt us' we have to acknowledge that trying to hurt us comes with the very real risk we hurt them in a way they can't afford. We're the spooky, mysterious, but above all prestigious hill people to the rest of the Lowlands, they're not going to risk our wrath when they're already embroiled/at risk of getting embroiled in war.
 
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[X] [Kick] The Garden
[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Western Thunder Horse/Thunder Speakers
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom

I agree that becoming a neutral party to allow for the trade of goods is a good idea it would not only increase our econ but also allows us to make diplo annexing both the TH and HK much easier if we ever want to
 
For all the talk of trade being a great way to acquire tech innovations... In practice, it just doesn't seem to happen. At all.

Witness the latest trade turn with the Dead Priests. We know they have to have some nice stuff.

We didn't get any of it. :cry:
 
Kiba said:
The copper mine will be there next turn, but March is an urgent priority. So we're getting a copper mine so that we can boost trail construction and boost completion of the garden megaproject.
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Copper Mine isn't a prerequisite for trail construction. That's New Settlement. Garden will complete in another regardless.
Karugus said:
That's opinion. Opinion with no real evidence supporting it. Reopening trade with a massive gift to prove our power and wealth happened far more often than suddenly giving a trade partner a gift.

Again, why do you think the ceasefire is suddenly going to end? The Xoh are still dealing with the ETH as well, and the HK would love to have a go at them rather than take a swing at the TS. To say nothing of the fact trading in conflict is not suddenly going to bring down everyone on us.

I just flat out don't see the urgency you're so insistent on here. We can afford to trample on a few toes worst case scenario all things considered. The HK sure as hell won't be mad over the salt, and the TS have much bigger fish to fry. If they pick a fight with the Xoh- well thems the breaks, it's not a massive loss.
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You seem to be under the Impression that Salt Gift will just suddenly have us offer Salt to absolutely everyone as opposed to those that we actually have trading with. When we have to take a dedicated project to send trade missions, I very much doubt we would do such a thing.

It's the Lowlands. They've been fighting for centuries. They even fought through the Star Pox. They have no reason to not start up again. The point of trading is to take advantage before the fighting, not during it. The problem is that with the only trading we are doing is with the Xohyrissi, we aren't looked at too favorably and makes us look less like a neutral party.
Karugus said:
How? The HK wouldn't have boats to get to the sea, and would have to go through both the TS and the DP to pull it off. If the TS get a diplo hero, they're far better off using them against the TH fighting them rather than trying to spite us and potentially instigate war against us.

Hurling nomads at us is incredibly risky because if we learn they sent them (wouldn't be super hard to learn) we've got casus belli to kick their ass while they're already bogged down in war. That same example you gave of inexplicable nomad horde also explains why we got away with pissing in literally everyone's cheerios and why they couldn't do the same- because they were way too preoccupied dealing with the fallout and fighting each other to actually retaliate against us for our shenanigans. If they threw a horde at us, that's a secondary war mission backing Stallions, a policy change to offensive, and a major war action to fuck with the instigator. It's only when we're preoccupied on another front that assaulting us becomes viable, and we're the exact opposite of preoccupied. Our martial has never been higher and is growing every turn thanks to the Stallions, we're stable, wealthy, and diplomatically secure.

The fact of the matter is, everyone neighboring us needs our neutrality and non-committance more than we need peace with them. We can't just look at the picture of 'how can they theoretically hurt us' we have to acknowledge that trying to hurt us comes with the very real risk we hurt them in a way they can't afford. We're the spooky, mysterious, but above all prestigious hill people to the rest of the Lowlands, they're not going to risk our wrath when they're already embroiled/at risk of getting embroiled in war.
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The problem with that is that you assume they know that. They think we are weird farmers that live in hills. We haven't fought in the lowlands in centuries. They have no idea what sort of martial ability we have so they would try.
 
Karugus said:
considering the Stallions are explicitly capable of giving us military innovations, and that they mained chariots+plus have a lot of influence from the nomads who had spoked wheels IIRC, is there any chance that the People have finally made that connection or are any closer to making that connection?
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No one has spoked chariots yet, you figured out planked wheels centuries ago by now, so you're technically at the forefront of the technology, although someone else will probably move towards spokes before you.

Necratoid said:
Victors? One side got plagued into a civil war and the other side had someone more stupid and annoying to deal with... Its was called off do to lack of interest not because someone actually accomplished anything. At the moment Salt Bombing won't hurt The People diplomatically with anyone.
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Point of clarification: the Eastern Thunder Horse are essentially a whole other civilization, they're the group who went east after the disaster with succession. You don't know much about them, but it sounds like they are a warrior elite sitting atop a conquered population at least as much as the Western Thunder Horse, if not moreso. Their homes may be somewhere in distant eastern mountains. It's not a civil war, its another player attempting to muscle in on the lowlands.
 
drake_azathoth said:
For all the talk of trade being a great way to acquire tech innovations... In practice, it just doesn't seem to happen. At all.

Witness the latest trade turn with the Dead Priests. We know they have to have some nice stuff.

We didn't get any of it. :cry:
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Trade is an ongoing process. Notice that us sending a trade mission to the metal workers didn't automatically give us metal working either. It takes time.
 
Academia Nut said:
Point of clarification: the Eastern Thunder Horse are essentially a whole other civilization, they're the group who went east after the disaster with succession. You don't know much about them, but it sounds like they are a warrior elite sitting atop a conquered population at least as much as the Western Thunder Horse, if not moreso. Their homes may be somewhere in distant eastern mountains. It's not a civil war, its another player attempting to muscle in on the lowlands.
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That is even more of a reason to send a trade mission to them.

We don't want another player sticking their foot it and starting up another war. That keeps choking trade for more tech from far reaching locations.
 
Karugus said:
How? The HK wouldn't have boats to get to the sea, and would have to go through both the TS and the DP to pull it off. If the TS get a diplo hero, they're far better off using them against the TH fighting them rather than trying to spite us and potentially instigate war against us.
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I stated they'd send in a third party proxy at us... they don't need boats only diplomatic contacts. We haven't talked to them in so long we have no idea who they are actually in contact with.

As much of a mess as the Lowlands are they aren't the only geographical location HK has some access to. The people are their northern neighbor not the empire surrounding their one province minor lands.
Karugus said:
Hurling nomads at us is incredibly risky because if we learn they sent them (wouldn't be super hard to learn) we've got casus belli to kick their ass while they're already bogged down in war.
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They get a Khan that owes them a favor and things change. No one figured out The People did that... or at least remember that.
Karugus said:
The fact of the matter is, everyone neighboring us needs our neutrality and non-committance more than we need peace with them.
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Your assuming everyone is going to act rationally forever and some @^%*&$ King isn't going to be a petty jerk or use it as part of take over the world scheme he thinks he can pull off against the rich neighbors that no one has heard of their military doing anything offensive. Meaning He can swoop in and annex The people when He saves them. That or someone that stopped caring and wants to burn the world for not worshiping him... or because lead painted dishes make meals tasty and sweet.
drake_azathoth said:
Witness the latest trade turn with the Dead Priests. We know they have to have some nice stuff.

We didn't get any of it. :cry:
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Directly... having reports of their defencive efforst and how The People aren't build to that standard could lead to a Fortress city project or something.
Academia Nut said:
Their homes may be somewhere in distant eastern mountains. It's not a civil war, its another player attempting to muscle in on the lowlands.
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I was refering to the reason the Thunder Speakers send envoys to HK... and discovered it didn't technically work as the King died and they were having a succession crisis. So the HK civil war not the Thunder speakers and EST being a civil war.
 
@Academia Nut Does the Salt Gift action depend on and/or become more effective with stronger trade ties and/or ties to more nations?

BungieONI said:
Here is my thinking on it which might not have been clear. I apologize for that.

When we get to step 3 I am certain the Nomads will be returning to raiding. Auto switch to Offense. Travel through the Midturn. Get to step 5. One full swing of actions.
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In such a case it is still better to not switch province policy. Doing a single Main War Mission saves 1 Main action.
Sivantic said:
I haven't the foggiest idea what you just said. Queen's English please.
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rude
hylas240 said:
I thought the Southern Hill people were the refugees that we settled? The ones that fled the south-west coastal kingdoms that were doing a civil war dance.
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The southern hill people WERE the refugees that we settled, but are also the very people that the refugees were fleeing from.
The SHP are a metal-creating people who trade that metal to the HK. They live on the other side of the mountains from the HK, i.e. if you look at the map, they're on the opposite side of the mountain chain that HK is limited by, just around the bend from the planned Southshore location.
There's a desert past them but the nearby area is pretty fertile. Inside the desert is another, distant kingdom that somehow is extremely fertile (aka Egypt).
The SHP can also offer opium.
The SHP create sea raiders when their internal squabbles escalate.

veekie said:
Tech transfer opportunity. This type of lower, cheaper walls would be very useful for the Stallion Tribes to copy, because all it needs to do is to keep chariots from building up momentum and it protects ALL the fields, not just the settlements.
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Completely disagree. Low walls are literally just applying a Main wall building action to a wider area. It's like watchtowers except you're building a shitty wall, like the one we use for step-farms.

pblur said:
Actually, theres no evidence we're sending water uphill at all. I expect this to be a straight gravity feed in an open channel.
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Agreed.

While I would like to do a trade mission, my personal plan is for us to do The Dam next turn so that it is finally gdamned done. This becomes more likely with increased supplies of copper tools. The only expected loss from doing the trade missions later is that we will be less able to affect the HK's laws and thus culture. While I would like to do that (and also laugh at them for stealing our gdamn idea), I place more importance on The Dam because it's not like we plan on assimilating the HK in the near future, and doing so is still going to take a war or extreme dedication of trade regardless.

@notgreat This is 100% a bribe. Plz 2 finish The Damned Dam.
[X] notgreat
 
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[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[X] [Kick] The Garden

We have been putting the copper off long enough. Let's not get distracted again.
 
Umi-san said:
While I would like to do a trade mission, my personal plan is for us to do The Dam next turn so that it is finally gdamned done.
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My good sir, may I ask a simple question? Why do you wait several years before constructing The Dam Of The Damned when instead we could go balls to the wall and finish it now? The only thing that prevents us from doing it is our own lack of confidence, so I say we kick reason to the curb and fight the power of so-called common sense!
 
Umi-san said:
While I would like to do a trade mission, my personal plan is for us to do The Dam next turn so that it is finally gdamned done. This becomes more likely with increased supplies of copper tools. The only expected loss from doing the trade missions later is that we will be less able to affect the HK's laws and thus culture. While I would like to do that (and also laugh at them for stealing our gdamn idea), I place more importance on The Dam because it's not like we plan on assimilating the HK in the near future, and doing so is still going to take a war or extreme dedication of trade regardless.
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I'm going to laugh so hard if getting copper weapons removes the Dam as a megaproject:lol
DragonParadox said:
We have been putting the copper off long enough. Let's not get distracted again.
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It's not getting distracted. It's taking care of time-sensitive events that we have no guarantee will still be available next turn.
 
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