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Paths of Civilization

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Based on AN's description of kicking Main province war actions in the Total War speculation branch, could we triple kick Saltern if we wanted to?
 
pblur said:
Based on AN's description of kicking Main province war actions in the Total War speculation branch, could we triple kick Saltern if we wanted to?
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Even though that'd very nearly certainly get it in one turn, it'd also put us at -1 Stab, which is mneh.
 
tryrar said:
I think so, but since we'd finish it in 1-2 turns with a single kick anyways, why would we want to do that?
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Triple kicking it is a Bad Plantm​ right now. Exploring the option since it hadn't been discussed. Double kicking would give a much better chance of completing in one turn ( and saving us any turns filled up with pure econ the second)
 
[X] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[X] [Main] Saltern
[X][Secondary] Study Health
[X][Secondary] Study Health x2
[X] [Kick] Saltern
[X] [Kick] Saltern x2

We have the stability to burn over the next few turns, and saves us an awkward turn where we aren't quite done with Saltern, but can't start dam/garden. Also increases chance of megaproject policy and symphony effect.

Edit: this plan leaves us at +1 stability. Perfectly acceptable.
 
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VoidZero said:
The 4-7 actions cost isn't too hopeful on the finish in one turn outlook. I'm assuming the trait bonuses are already included of course.

If we kick: Stability is actual going from +1 (current) to 0 (kicking) to +1 (mega project start). And after unspecific time we get a +1 for completion.

If we don't kick: Stability going from +1 (current) to +2 (mega project start). And after unspecific time we get a +1 for completion.
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Considering that, IIRC, Symphony was developed post Saltern, that is unlikely to be true. Feel free to look at previous action lists to fact check me; I would but I'm on mobile and only sporadically checking in.

Kicking occurs after the mega project starts, because kicking is part of a mega project, not preparation for it.
 
Umi-san said:
Considering that, IIRC, Symphony was developed post Saltern, that is unlikely to be true. Feel free to look at previous action lists to fact check me; I would but I'm on mobile and only sporadically checking in.

Kicking occurs after the mega project starts, because kicking is part of a mega project, not preparation for it.
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Plus, I rather doubt from it's description Symphony gives a hard numerical bonus to megaprojects or other concerted efforts anyways. it's much more likely to be a flexible bonus that depends on the effort we're putting into it.
 
[X]Dead Priests
[X] [Main]Saltern
[X] [Secondary]Study Health
[X] [Secondary]Study Forest
[X][Kick] Don't Kick
 
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[X]Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[X][Main] The Saltern
[X][Secondary] New Settlement-Southshore
[X][Secondary] New Settlement-Southshore x2
 
pblur said:
Legitimacy goes to -3 as well? I thought it was zerobased like econ or w/e. (Pardon my ignorance, I came to the thread at the beginning of tax hell and there's no record of historical stat ranges.)
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We haven't the slightest idea as it is a newer stat than Stability. It's not really something we really want to risk.

Still, they are placed together, I'd think there is a reason for that.
tryrar said:
Sorry, my biggest pet peeve is when people are hoarding stability because if we god forbid drop below 3 we might blow up or something. Stability, like all other stats, are meant to be spent. Not willy nilly mind you, but hoarding it like a paranoid trillionare because the economy might crash the instant you spend money and then you're out your trillions is just plain stupid.
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Except we aren't trying to hoard like you keep exaggerating, but have a buffer so when we do have to take a stability hit, we can deal with it more easily.
pblur said:
[X] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[X] [Main] Saltern
[X][Secondary] Study Health
[X][Secondary] Study Health x2
[X] [Kick] Saltern
[X] [Kick] Saltern x2

We have the stability to burn over the next few turns, and saves us an awkward turn where we aren't quite done with Saltern, but can't start dam/garden. Also increases chance of megaproject policy and symphony effect.

Edit: this plan leaves us at +1 stability. Perfectly acceptable.
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Kick doesn't work that way. You have to double main first.
 
Sivantic said:
We haven't the slightest idea as it is a newer stat than Stability. It's not really something we really want to risk.

Still, they are placed together, I'd think there is a reason for that.

Except we aren't trying to hoard like you keep exaggerating, but have a buffer so when we do have to take a stability hit, we can deal with it more easily.

Kick doesn't work that way. You have to double main first.
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A buffer greater than 1 IS hoarding. Or it is at least to me. See, I've never agreed for pushing for so high a stability. If we get 2+ as a bonus to our other actions(like this turn)? Great! But spending actions to aggressively push stability that high is a waste of actions to me.
 
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of "zamin over-analyses everything"

To sum up our last turn:

Everyone else: "The Hill People are blessed by the spirits! Praise be the Hill People!"

Dead Priests: "Well done, sir! Shall we trade medical knowledge like proper gentlemen?"

The People consider what they have, and decide that the only reasonable thing to do is to let everyone else that in the region know about their discovery, so that lives might be saved. Some considered that the demons only inflicted their curses on bad people, but others countered that even if the leadership were wicked there were still innocents among them that could suffer. Also, unlike with the sacred warding from the cattle, the discovery of how the blue plague spread and the recipe for the restorative potion were simple, so there was no danger that anyone would make a dangerous mistake. Seeing this, the king decreed that the knowledge was to be shared, spread far and wide, so that the innocent might be spared the ravages of disease. Some of those tasked to do so might not return, and they would probably end up spending wealth and influence to make it so, but it would be worth it.

Three years after the traders went out, a most curious delegation was brought to the attention of the king. A trader from the Thunder Horse had with him a number of odd 'guests', foreigners who required translation. Inviting them in, the king was introduced to the representatives of the Xohyssiri - who the People had called the Dead Priests since time immemorial. Well tanned men of dark hair and long beards carefully tied into braids, they bore tattoos of abstract and inscrutable design upon their hands and necks and had polished stone discs within their ears. They wore otherwise undecorated white cotton robes and had a definite air of wisdom and spiritual power about them. Assistants from the Thunder Horse trader brought in large tablets of dark black stone upon poles and began laying them out at the instruction of one of the Dead Priests.
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This is hilarious. We got a response... from the last people I think any of us was expecting.

- I do like our people's reasoning for spreading the knowledge: "Even if this is punishment for bad people, a lot of good people are dying too. We need to help them! And since the cure is so simple, they can't possibly fuck this up either!"
- So the Dead Priests are officially called the "Xohyssiri". AN, plz. Why must you make up names that are so hard to spell? @.@
- So from what we can see, they'd got tattoos, shiny earrings, and plain white cotton robes. Quick, get our traders to sell them some dye!
- Oh, wow. They must be really serious about this. Otherwise, why would they bother to drag all those heavy stone tablets all the way up from their capital and through the war torn lowlands?

"What is this?" The king asked.

"They say that it is repayment for knowledge. In their custom, something given must be paid back, and something given freely must be paid back twice. Your sharing of knowledge - the Thunder Speaker also has our gifts of thanks for that by the way - was so strong that they sent a delegation to ask us for assistance in sending their gift to you, despite the fact that we're not exactly friends with them, as they figured the journey would be difficult and communication near impossible without a go between," the trader explained, adding on, "They also paid us considerably for this." After that, he began to speak in a foreign language, probably relaying what he just said along to the Dead Priest delegates.

The members of the council went to inspect the tablets being set out, and found that in the smooth black stone there were drawings that had been carved into the surface and then the cut marks had been filled in with gold to create dazzling highlights, showing rather ghoulish pictures of people who appeared to have been butchered, surrounded by foreign writing. Those who saw them were obviously shocked, but the king and the Spirit Chief kept the upset of the others from spilling over, even as they were wary and suspicious, and asked darkly, "What is this?"

"This is their sacred Book of the Living, a guide to how the body is laid out, the various diseases and injuries of the organs, and every treatment they know against each of these. They told me that while they understand that many do not like how their ancestors acquired this knowledge, they themselves are only from the healing caste of their priesthood, who are forbidden from actually performing any sort of sacrifice. They consider their own lives to be a component of the payment towards your generosity, but ask that if they are to be killed that they be able to give you a proper translation of the Book of the Living first so that you might make use of it. They are also instructed to share their knowledge with your healers as well," the trader explained.

Taking a closer look at one of the tablets, the Spirit Chief hummed to himself before he said, "Fascinating."
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Remember when I said that people would definitely be grateful if we spread the cure around? This is what we got.

- So the Dead Priests have some version of our old Eye for an Eye trait which makes them want to pay back all debts, good or bad. By freely giving them our cure for cholera, we triggered this super hard
- Oh, and the Thunder Horses are sending us gifts too, which is nice. The Highlanders are probably too caught up in their civil war to send us anything, though I'm sure they're also grateful for the gift of not having to shit themselves to death anymore
- "The Sacred Book of the Living". Huh, was this the result of one of their own Mega-projects or did they develop this naturally over time? Either way, I WANT
- It looks like the Dead Priests have mellowed out a bit. They apparently aren't as keen on the whole human sacrifice thing anymore and they even have healer priests now, which is a bit weird but also nice to see
- And it looks like their version of the Greater Good is just as terrifying as ours in some ways. These healer priests are basically saying "You can kill us if you want, but could you let us translate these texts for you first?"
- Spirit Chief Approves of the Shinies!

The king on the other hand asked, "The council shall consider this gift, although we have to ask the motivation more clearly."

The trader and the leader of the Dead Priest delegation had a bit of a conversation before the trader replied, "They say that it is an obligation for them. I don't know if I understand it precisely, but their spirits teach them and compel them to return all favours and insults in turn and time. The gift of life is the most precious gift possible, so in sending them a solution for the blue plague, they must repay life saving magic with life saving magic or their own gods will destroy them for their disrespect."

The council look over the stone faced men who claimed to be healers with intense suspicion, before the king glared at them all and said, "Enough! It is the way of the People that all who come in peace be greeted warmly and offered food and shelter. So long as they do not violate our laws and ways I see no reason to turn these men away, and if they wish to work for us in teaching - teaching that will be carefully examined and reviewed by our wisest shamans - then I also see no reason to deny them such work. We will also of course offer repayment for those of our guests among the Thunder Horse who may wish to linger here and aid in translation until we may speak with these healers without an intermediary."

While this did not immediately turn all frowns to smiles, it did shame the majority into polite neutrality. Even if the gift were strange and distasteful, the chiefs and councilors could be reminded to take it as it was fairly obviously intended - an honest gift from outsiders. A few of the more spiritually apt even considered what some of the carvings seemed to be demonstrating and wondered if perhaps the wickedly obtained knowledge might actually be of use.
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- Yeah, I can see why people might be a bit weirded out by the Dead Priests gifts. But honestly, nabbing something like the Book of the Living is so worth it, especially for our shamans
- Land of Opportunity procs here, I believe:
"Enough! It is the way of the People that all who come in peace be greeted warmly and offered food and shelter. So long as they do not violate our laws and ways I see no reason to turn these men away, and if they wish to work for us in teaching - teaching that will be carefully examined and reviewed by our wisest shamans - then I also see no reason to deny them such work. We will also of course offer repayment for those of our guests among the Thunder Horse who may wish to linger here and aid in translation until we may speak with these healers without an intermediary."
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And as a result, it gets fused to become an even more powerful trait:
Trait Fusion
Land of Opportunity + Greater Good -> Cosmopolitan Acceptance
The People see not outsiders but fellow humans in need of assistance, and are always willing to offer aid, knowing that even when friendship is uncertain the act of offering is a cleansing one.
Pros: Enhanced absorption of new ideas, +1 social value from current or historical neighbours, whenever a neighbour suffers a stability drop have the option to also suffer a stability drop in exchange for a large boost to Econ and technological and social advancement by absorbing especially large numbers of people, the first Econ boost a turn only has a chance of causing a stability drop rather than a guaranteed drop
Cons: Many think you weak, no longer have the option to turn away the needy, sometimes you get values you didn't expect
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So now we have "Land of Opportunity 2: IMMIGRATION INTENSIFIES"

You know, I used to joke about the Ymmir becoming Copper Age Elf America, but it's looking more and more likely with each turn.

This trait basically takes Land of Opportunity and turns the dial all the way up to 11.
> Absorb foreign ideas even faster
> Get an extra social value from our neighbors
> Economic Vampirism: Whenever one of our neighbors messes up, we can casually gobble up all their tasty, tasty economy for the Greater Good
> Oh, and by the way, the first time we do this each turn, we have a chance of not losing any stability, which lets us take in all that Econ for free

There are three main negatives, though:
1) Many think you weak
2) No longer have an option to turn away immigrants
3) Sometimes we might get values we don't expect

Problem 1 is... not really that much of a problem because if someone decides to start attacking us they'll find out very quickly that we have teeth. Given all our traits, terrain bonuses and defensive tech, we can turn any defensive fight into a meatgrinder. And in an offensive fight, we have the option of going TOTAL WAR and BIOLOGICAL WARFARE BITCHES, which would be really, really horrible to fight against.

Problem 2 isn't that big of a problem unless we allow our stability to drop to negative right before another refugee wave. As long as we have positive stability (and keep having a positive stability), we should be able to absorb at least some refugees every time this trait procs.

Problem 3 is a problem if we accidentally choose or absorb a bad trait. Fortunately, we have an idea about what some of our neighbors would give us (DP = Greater Good, Highlanders = Order Above All). To counter this, I think we need to do more trade missions and gain closer relationships so that we know exactly what traits they have and how well they'd fit into our society.

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STATS

General
Diplomacy 5
Economy 5
Martial 8

Stability
Stability 0 (neutral)
Legitimacy 3 (max)

Organizational
Centralization 5
Hierarchy 6

Cultural
Art 4
Mysticism 6
Prestige 4
General
Diplomacy 7
Economy 7
Martial 8

Stability
Stability 1 (confident)
Legitimacy 3 (max)

Organizational
Centralization 5
Hierarchy 6

Cultural
Art 4
Mysticism 7
Prestige 5

Diplomacy +2, Economy +2, Stability +1, Mysticism +1, Prestige +1

Nothing dropped.

All in all, pretty solid progress overall.

New Technology!
Medicine
Ancient human anatomy
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Why thank you, Dead Priests! Much appreciated.

Everything else looks the same.

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CHOICES

OH BOY YOU KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS KIDS?



Mainly cause we get +1 Stability if we start either the Garden or the Saltern this turn.

The Gardens can be completed in ONE TURN if we throw in the kicker, which is a bit crazy. Its main benefit seems to be giving our capital a steady supply of clean, fresh water, which will further improve our people's quality of life in many ways.

The Saltern takes longer, but gives us more salt which we can then sell to other people and increase our reputation even further. It turns us into the main supplier of salt for this region, which means that everyone will want to be on our good side.

A note about Kicking - personally, I don't see the need for Kicking if we're taking the Saltern, but if we're picking the Garden it's worth it cause it lets us finish it in one turn.

As for our other choices:
> No more Grand Sacrifice :cry:
> Copper Mine no longer costs us Stability
> Expand Economy has 9 slots available now
> Possible Synergy with this turn's events: More Carrion Eaters, Study Health
> New Settlements can let us plop down a new province in Eastern Hills, Southern Shore and Black River (wherever that is)
> Restoration of Order is currently unavailable (maybe cause our Stability is too high)
> Study Metal now has a "tiny" chance of new insights, probably because we've already gotten everything easy to learn. We should probably set up a mine before trying this again
> We can actually trade with the Dead Priests now, which is interesting. I kinda want to try it out just to see what the heck they've been doing for the past few centuries

Also, we get to pick a new trait to absorb:
Select a new LoO trait
[] Highland Kingdom (One compatible value: Order Above All)
[] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[] Thunder Horse (Probable Honour value)
[] Northern Nomads (Probable Honour value)
Metal Workers have no compatible values of interest
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The safest option would be to pick up the Greater Good again because we know what it does, we know it fits really well with our other values, and it gives us the Grand Sacrifice option, which is amazing when we're low on Stability.

The only other trait I'm willing to consider is the Highland Kingdom's Order Above All because I think it might help us maintain stability or legitimacy. However, we don't know what possible downsides it could have, which makes me a bit leery about choosing it over the Greater Good.

So for this turn my votes are:
[X] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[X] [Main] Saltern
[X][Secondary] Study Health
[X][Secondary] Study Health x2

I'm picking Study Health mainly because I think it would work very well with the healers and anatomy texts the Dead Priests sent over. If we wait too long, the healers will die off. We'll still have the texts, but we won't be able to learn more from them if they're dead.
 
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[X] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[X] [Main] Saltern
[X][Secondary] Study Health
[X][Secondary] Study Health x2
[X][Kick] Don't kick
 
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Sivantic said:
We haven't the slightest idea as it is a newer stat than Stability. It's not really something we really want to risk.

Still, they are placed together, I'd think there is a reason for that.

Except we aren't trying to hoard like you keep exaggerating, but have a buffer so when we do have to take a stability hit, we can deal with it more easily.

Kick doesn't work that way. You have to double main first.
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We're triple maining. We can kick province actions.
 
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