Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Ehh... I'm pretty sure that anyone living close to a river already bathes/pisses/shits in the river. It is an extremely convenient way of both getting "clean" water and removing the waste generated by a society.
My main concern is that if we share the secret of hygiene with the metal workers, they are going to inevitably spread it to other cultures. Either we need to keep it completely secret, or we should at least grab the +1 stability from sharing it with our immediate neighbors. Splitting the difference gets us the worst of both worlds.
My main concern is that if we share the secret of hygiene with the metal workers, they are going to inevitably spread it to other cultures. Either we need to keep it completely secret, or we should at least grab the +1 stability from sharing it with our immediate neighbors. Splitting the difference gets us the worst of both worlds.
Ah, researchers versus engineers thing.
Hmm, interesting, I guess it'd depend on what they do to determine whether they get the knowledge then? With their recent truce they are free to resume trading with us, in which case they get the lore...or if they want to keep glaring at us over each other they can miss out
We do have the lead in yes, though not necessarily what people are envisaging as a sewer since that takes a megaproject amount of digging in itself.
Think more like covered drains and likely septic tanks.
Septic tanks leading to Black Soil pits probably.
Which would need to be sealed and set on fire seasonally, then scraped out.
Yes, as per this:
and
The Garden involves directing water into the Valleyhome settlement via aqueducts, which increases arable land by allowing for home and rooftop gardens(which might not seem like much, except consider that Valleyhome settlement is now big enough to cover significant plots of farmland).
In essence, remember that all the land near the river in Valleyhome had been cultivated, but the land that's not near the river in Valleyhome has not been cultivated yet. The Garden fixes that.
Of course, that's just the intent of our people. The true benefit is that with running water in the city, disease levels will drop just by having clean water always available, and we'd be able to change our drainage ditches into waste disposal channels.
Proto versions of Barley and wheat was mentioned I believe.
Some of it was about natural seeps. I'd like to be sure we would be accidentally telling them exactly where to start looking.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
[X] There is a war going on too you know (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
[X] Keep it secret (Chance of Stability loss)
[X] Expansion
[X] Keep it secret (Chance of Stability loss)
[X] Expansion
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You realize this vote could destroy our civilization through -4 stability?
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maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Remember this:
So Megaproject Support grants us two additional Main actions for the project as Law upgrades one Secondary and Policy fuses the remaining two Secondaries.
Which means without a Double Main we can get 3 actions worth of progress(which should be the base for Gardens). With a Double Main we can get 4(which should be the base for Saltern, though we'd need to drop Province/Restore Order options)
Hygiene isn't an easy concept to convey. Note that most cultures don't have a hygiene taboo at all in this era, it takes really ridiculous efforts to maintain enough water that it's practical.
What's likely to happen is:
-Metal Workers
--Ignore water hygiene element. They've always done it this way.
--Accept boiling water. Just put a copper kettle on the smelters. it costs them little to do this.
--Accept Salt potion. They can make it themselves, and salted water alone helps substantially with relieving anything that makes you sweat, shit or piss.
--Maybe Honey potion. Not sure if this is a scam, because the main source of Honey is the guy saying this is a magic potion.
Whoever they tell about it might pick up boiling water and using
-Northern Nomads
--Accept water hygiene element. Due to being nomadic, it doesn't take as much effort to avoid polluting water, rather than having to go rearrange all your infrastructure expensively(remember, we would find if far harder to do this if we didn't have universally Organized settlements)
--Ignore boiling water. Wood is too precious to waste on burning WATER of all things. Silly Ymirri.
--Maybe Salt potion. It helps, but the supply depends on trade.
--Maybe not Honey potion. Not sure if this is a scam, because the main source of Honey is the guy saying this is a magic potion.
Whoever they talk to will just carry the important lesson of not pissing where you are drinking. This is good for us, because they are upriver on the Black River, and so if they catch Cholera, we're going to be affected.
-Thunder Horse
--Accept water hygiene element. It's difficult because of the need to rearrange their herds, but their region lacks much water, so protecting it's quality is worth the cost.
--Ignore boiling water. Wood is too precious to waste on burning WATER of all things. Silly Ymirri.
--Maybe not Salt potion. Not sure if this is a scam, because the main source of Salt is the guy saying this is a magic potion.
--Maybe not Honey potion. Not sure if this is a scam, because the main source of Honey is the guy saying this is a magic potion.
Whoever they talk to will just carry the important lesson of not pissing where you are drinking. But they might decide that this will be a way to poison the shit out of the Dead Priests so the bastards shit themselves to death.
-Dead Priest
--Maybe water hygiene element. They'd need to rearrange how everything works on the lowlands to avoid latrines getting flooded during wet season, and everyone upriver is doing it anyway. Why bother?
--Ignore boiling water. Wood is too precious to waste on burning WATER of all things. Silly Ymirri.
--Maybe Salt potion. They have their own sources after all.
--What's honey?
Whoever they talk to will not get anything but Oppression.
-Highland Kingdom
--Maybe water hygiene element. They'd need to rearrange how everything works on the lowlands to avoid latrines getting flooded during wet season, but this is not a problem to implement near their capital in the hills.
--Ignore boiling water. Wood is too precious to waste on burning WATER of all things. Silly Ymirri.
--Maybe Salt potion. They have their own sources after all.
--Maybe not Honey potion. Not sure if this is a scam, because the main source of Honey is the guy saying this is a magic potion.
So whoever they talk to will know that salt is good, and keeping water clean is good.
Remember, Stone Age telephone game. Technology does not spread out indefinitely. It spreads a short distance before it's distorted beyond usability unless you have it in writing.
And it turns out, most factions won't HAVE our level of writing.
If we get -4 there will be no restoration. We just blow up.
Wait...you're ending the baby boom, using up all the economy slots and eating a huge stability hit for the express purpose of spending all the economy we can gain on restoring stability?
The heck does that make any sense?
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
- Location
- United States
Having our providences boost stability requires 1 turn. Your plan has a chance of dissolving our civ at -4 stability before they have a chance to boost stability (as our symphony trait means we crack once we touch -4, as opposed to other civs cracking if they remain at -4 by the end of their turn).
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
...not take the giant hit?
You're making a loss here since each 2 points of Stability costs 3 economy and one Main action to get. One Main action is itself worth 2 points of Economy. The Baby Boom is worth at least 3 more points of Economy this turn alone.
So you are gaining 6 economy(we don't have slots for +8 economy, since we cap at 12), and spending 11 points of Economy equivalent for it.
We're taking the minimum hit because it allows us to plunge fully into megaprojects without Stability problems
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I'm still going through the thread, but if we're on Megaproject Support and don't have a megaproject running, will the provinces automatically choose one?
Because, we have 3 things we really want to do next turn
1) More econ slots- we're running very, very low
2) Stability
3) Salterns for the Stability boost (though not enough alone) edit: or Gardens
If we chose Expansion, we'd be able to guarantee 1) via the provinces and take 2) and 3) manually. With Megaproject Support, I don't fully understand what actions the provinces will take.
Because, we have 3 things we really want to do next turn
1) More econ slots- we're running very, very low
2) Stability
3) Salterns for the Stability boost (though not enough alone) edit: or Gardens
If we chose Expansion, we'd be able to guarantee 1) via the provinces and take 2) and 3) manually. With Megaproject Support, I don't fully understand what actions the provinces will take.
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- Location
- Germany
No they will either generate econ or build new settlements in order to generate econ
If we don't have a megaproject to support we will get a mid turn to change policy. Or if we have a megaproject with no need for support they'd just up econ.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
There's a reason I keep saying it. Listen to the 3000 year old Maiar.God damn it...every time I see the keep it secret option I immediately repeat Gandalf's line from lord of the rings.
Gandalf would disapprove mightily of withholding life-saving wisdom.
- Location
- Sweden
I assume you are referring to what the nomads did with the war carts. This is not the same situation, they took the tech from their enemies, and their pride and hatred of us could not accept that so they created a tale more easy on their ego. We will be giving this information to our neighbors, that will generate gratitude and make the tale far less likely having us as the bad guys. It will give us the reputation of having wisdom and great skill at healing and if we maintain it we will be looked favorably upon by our neighbors.
There will of course be those who might create such a tale, the northern nomads very lifestyle leaves them with mainly oral storytelling as history keeping and their culture values martial prowess rather than mysticism and record keeping, while the DP are distant and might not appreciate the word of our shamans prowess spreading through their lands, but both of those are minor concerns. The HK's proximity and settled way of life gives them better record keeping and cultural memory, and while not as settled in as us or the HK, the TH and we have several points of cooperation through our history.
Will our heroics be twisted, eventually yes, we are in the cooper age and things will inevitably be lost and twisted. But it will give us a reputation and be remembered for many generations not just a few.
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Right, ok, I've finished reading through the thread now.
I'm not gonna even bother arguing for this vote, but damnit people, you're not thinking things through.
Rushing a megaproject is awesome, but it means we have no safety net in available actions. Next turn is now forced to be
1) Megaproject
2) New province
So yeah, not much to say. Not sure which project is better, but we need to expand ASAP. We're out of econ slots, and we're missing out on free actions.
Luckily the megaproject will give stability and we're doing solid on stability with these choices so it's not all that bad.
I'm not gonna even bother arguing for this vote, but damnit people, you're not thinking things through.
Rushing a megaproject is awesome, but it means we have no safety net in available actions. Next turn is now forced to be
1) Megaproject
2) New province
So yeah, not much to say. Not sure which project is better, but we need to expand ASAP. We're out of econ slots, and we're missing out on free actions.
Luckily the megaproject will give stability and we're doing solid on stability with these choices so it's not all that bad.
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- Location
- Asia
[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Keep it secret (Chance of Stability loss)
[X] Megaproject Support
[X] Keep it secret (Chance of Stability loss)
[X] Megaproject Support