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Paths of Civilization

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Sivantic said:
Because it isn't risk free. It also helps stabilize the lowlands when them being stuck in chaos is preferable. That gives us more opportunity to finish our own projects without having to deal with them.
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I'm not really sure it will stabilize the lowlands. Right now, the chaos is pretty much independent of the disease (cholera is just the icing on the shit-laced cake). Giving them the key to fighting the disease isn't likely to end the civil war in the HK or the 3 way war between the DP and both Thunder Horse groups.
 
hylas240 said:
I'm not really sure it will stabilize the lowlands. Right now, the chaos is pretty much independent of the disease (cholera is just the icing on the shit-laced cake). Giving them the key to fighting the disease isn't likely to end the civil war in the HK or the 3 way war between the DP and both Thunder Horse groups.
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It won't stabilize the lowlands on it's own, but it's fully possible that a roll that wouldn't have stabilized them normally does so because the now know how to prevent cholera.

Mind you, I find it unlikely they'll be able to afford that for a long time, but it's certainly a possibility.
 
you know what I love about this quest? that the thing that seems to be our hat is essentially boring logistics. We tend the land and pour effort into infrastructure megaprojects, with our most cherished victories being over hunger and disease. I've seen kingdom quests go full war, and I've seen them go full mad science, but I don't think I've ever seen them go full stewardship before.
 
[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support

Anyway looking at our new techs i got the glimpse of somenthing interesting...
Masonry
Terra Preta
Ash glazed pottery
Empirical primitive sanitary theory
Stone Age Canal

So together with garden we might get a sewer system megaproject.
 
Sivantic said:
False. Salterns falls under Divine Stewards. We get Economy from it.

I do agree on not kicking it though.
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I think @veekie means that the Garden will provide more Econ then the Saltern because it gives Econ out on it's own unlike the Saltern


[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with friendly groups (Chance of other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support
 
sidestory said:
I think @veekie means that the Garden will provide more Econ then the Saltern because it gives Econ out on it's own unlike the Saltern


[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with friendly groups (Chance of other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support
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I have yet to see a single citation that says The Garden will provide econ independent of Divine Stewards.
 
I'm sure the lowlanders will be fairy quiet this coming turn and maybe next turn.
Reasons:
  • Cholera wiping out at least 20% of productivity through direct death and indirect resource drain on sick people.
  • Battle royale for ALL factions in the area, causing direct death, razed farmland, and rising bandit raids. Compounding existing problems.
  • Leading to mass starvation and even more death via diseases and poxs from corpses.
  • Entire generation of children, dead due to starvation and diseases.
  • Resulting in at least half of total population dead, dying, or fleeing.
  • Causing drops in factions stability, turning into downward spiral. Might even spawn minor factions.
 
[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support
 
[X] The whole lowlands are kind of a mess, you know? (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, other effects)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject

If this goes well we might become the heroes of the region, the go to guys for health issues. Attacking us might turn our neighbors against the attackers. After all if we are dead who is going to save them from the next demon attack?
 
sidestory said:
The Garden improves our abilities to create food via farming and food=Econ

Simple logic
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Academia Nut said:
The Garden - The canal has greatly expanded the People's knowledge of controlling and directing water. A smaller but more personal project has been proposed to improve Valleyhome
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We already irrigated our farms to the theoretical limit.

Also, it wouldn't make any sense for it to be farm irrigation and still give stability (the stability is supposed to be from addressing the cholera). Pretty much everyone agrees that, with the stability bonus this turn only, AN is saying that The Garden is basically plumbing.

So yeah, no quotes and just baseless speculation.
 
Athanor said:
[X] The whole lowlands are kind of a mess, you know? (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, other effects)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject

If this goes well we might become the heroes of the region, the go to guys for health issues. Attacking us might turn our neighbors against the attackers. After all if we are dead who is going to save them from the next demon attack?
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And how long to you think they will remember our heroics? In a few generations it will not be the hill people giving them secret of fighting ilness it will be some local boy stealing the secret from hill people sorcerers.
 
[X] No more than usual (Tiny chance of Stability loss)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support
 
[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support

Aiming for Saltern, but honestly, either is fine? Like. Saltern and Garden are both fuckin' rad. Getting either one or both is therefore rad.
 
I don't see why people want to push the cure on everybody, being mysterious is neccesety if we want to hold the soft power of "the guys who kill demons". Gratitude rarely lasts long between nations. On the other hand we should share with the friendlies, because the People love their friends.

[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2Econ)
[X] Share with friendly groups (Chance of other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support
 
Sivantic said:
False. Salterns falls under Divine Stewards. We get Economy from it.

I do agree on not kicking it though.
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Yeah, but Gardens is primary Economy, in that it directly increases agricultural output, and is likely to add at least 2 points of Economy independent of Stewards, which would be able to cover the maximum possible expense of the Saltern, while the reverse is not necessarily true.

Still, its just quibbling over sequence of events.
Whether we go for(optimistic timeline):
Turn 1 - Gardens Started, Gardens completed
Turn 2 - Salterns Started
Turn 3 - Salterns Completed

Or:
Turn 1 - Salterns Started
Turn 2 - Salterns Completed
Turn 3 - Gardens Started, Gardens completed

The difference is merely having a Megaproject's bonuses start 1 turn early.

Provided we don't kick it anyway, since that means we definitely won't make the deadline for the second one. Kicking is for emergencies now that we have the far more powerful Law and Policy.

hylas240 said:
I'm not really sure it will stabilize the lowlands. Right now, the chaos is pretty much independent of the disease (cholera is just the icing on the shit-laced cake). Giving them the key to fighting the disease isn't likely to end the civil war in the HK or the 3 way war between the DP and both Thunder Horse groups.
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Pretty much.
Omegahugger said:
It won't stabilize the lowlands on it's own, but it's fully possible that a roll that wouldn't have stabilized them normally does so because the now know how to prevent cholera.

Mind you, I find it unlikely they'll be able to afford that for a long time, but it's certainly a possibility.
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Naw, again, they don't have the infrastructure for this.
Take a look at the potential recipients:

Primary
-Metal Workers
--Priority to them - Low, they don't have Cholera epidemic there.
--Keeping rivers clean - Hard. They will find this expensive due to the outflow from their mines tainting them anyway.
--Boil your water - Easy, it's not going to use more fuel than smelting.
--Salt - They have access to coast.
--Honey - We don't know(but barring Managed Forests, Honey is pretty rare and difficult to domesticate)
--Re-transmission vectors - Northern Nomads
--Abuse risk - Unknown.

-Western Thunder Horse
--Priority to them - High, epidemic victims
--Keeping rivers clean - Hard, due to herding, if you want to keep shit out of your rivers, having a cattle and horse based economy is not good, and irrigate manure fertiized fields rather than use Black Soil.
--Boil your water - Hard, Wood is very rare in their area.
--Salt - Hard, no coastal access.
--Honey - Hard, no forests.
--Re-transmission vectors - Northern Nomads, Eastern Thunder Horse, Dead Priests Currently fighting with all these. Highland Kingdom.
--Abuse risk - It will benefit them to literally shit in the river to make the Dead Priests sick downstream.

-Highland Kingdom
--Priority to them - High, epidemic victims
--Keeping rivers clean - Moderate, Keeping rivers clean in floodplains is difficult as the river enthusiastically pollutes itself during flood season.
--Boil your water - Moderate, Wood is rarer in their area.
--Salt - Moderate, Borders coastal polities.
--Honey - Hard, no forests.
--Re-transmission vectors - Western Thunder Horse, Lowland Minors, Southern Metal
--Abuse risk - It will benefit them to literally shit in the river to make the Dead Priests sick downstream.

-Lowland Minors
--Priority to them - High, epidemic victims
--Keeping rivers clean - Moderate, Keeping rivers clean in floodplains is difficult as the river enthusiastically pollutes itself during flood season.
--Boil your water - Moderate, Wood is rarer in their area.
--Salt - Hard, no coastal access.
--Honey - Hard, no forests.
--Re-transmission vectors - Western Thunder Horse, Highland Kingdom, Dead Priests
--Abuse risk - It will benefit them to literally shit in the river to make the Dead Priests sick downstream.

-Southcoast Minors
--Priority to them - Moderate, no cholera, but they border people who are affected
--Keeping rivers clean - Easy/hard, not on floodplains, unless they're doing metalworking, then hard
--Boil your water - Easy, as far as I can tell they likely have significant forests.
--Salt - Easy, coastal
--Honey - Moderate, Forests are not Managed.
--Re-transmission vectors - Highland Kingdom, Into the wild
--Abuse risk - Unknown

Retransmitted
-Northern Nomads
--Priority to them - Low, no Cholera yet
--Keeping rivers clean - Easy, due to being Nomadic, it's fairly simply to avoid tainting water, particularly when watering holes and rivers on the Steppes are often something of a sacred resource there(it's a common belief in nomadic regions as these determine their migration patterns and will kill multiple tribes if they fail)
--Boil your water - Hard, Wood is very rare in their area.
--Salt - Hard, no coastal access.
--Honey - Hard, no forests.
--Re-transmission vectors - Into the Wild
--Abuse risk - Low, unless they decide to contaiminate the Black River(which is unlikely, since they want to loot us not kill us)

-Dead Priests
--Priority to them - High, epidemic victims
--Keeping rivers clean - Hard, Keeping rivers clean in floodplains is difficult as the river enthusiastically pollutes itself during flood season, especially when you're downriver of everything
--Boil your water - Hard, Wood is very rare in their area.
--Salt - Moderate, they have access to coasts to the south
--Honey - Hard, no forests.
--Re-transmission vectors - Northern Nomads, Eastern Thunder Horse, Highland Kingdom Currently fighting with all these. Southern Lowlands
--Abuse risk - Low. They get fucked the worst from polluted rivers.

Noting of course that memetic mutation and lack of writing means that any party is likely to retransmit only once something usable.
The potion recipe cannot be retransmitted by people without Salt and Honey to trade, since they can't explain what it is.
Keeping shit out of water will be a difficult concept for a trade tongue to convey, as shit does not feature often in trading.

So basically what we'd wind up teaching broadly after retransmission noise will be "Burn your water, it will kill the demons"

...and after all this writing I just realized the most likely reason to trigger the Ymirri might be the HK and TH trying to murder the DPs too hard...
 
For a second I was thinking the new Observance trait, GG and Honorable Death are fusing into one mad science selfsacrifice trait.
I'm for the saltern.

[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with friendly groups (Chance of other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support
 
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